ZOLTAN vs ZERZAN, Future Tech vs Anarchic Primitivism, Transhumanists, Nov 15, 2014

<p>Nov 18, 2014 04:44 PM</p>

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ZOLTAN vs ZERZAN, Future Tech vs Anarchic Primitivism, Transhumanists, Nov 15, 2014

this is a debate sponsored by the <b>Stanford Transhumanist Assn</b>.

The debaters are <b>Zoltan Istvan</b> , a futurist, who goes first, and

<b>John Zerzan</b>, an anarcho primitivist, who has flown here from Oregon.

It takes place at 7PM in Geo Corner room 105 at Stanford.

<b>I warm up the crowd for 10 mins</b> with polls (who identifies with which side and

what are their rationales.)

<b>Zoltan Istvan</b> :opening remarks;&nbsp; he has become a strong minded transhumanist.

He initially was v focused on the enviro mvmt&nbsp; (and sailed around the world.)

Suppose tech disappeared, he states.&nbsp; No FIRE.&nbsp; Perhaps, no fresh water.

the world would b v difficult.&nbsp;&nbsp; But sci, tech, medicine has dramat. changed the lives of

all of us.&nbsp;&nbsp; He came across a Business Insider piece: great benefits: people are living longer

and longer; &nbsp;mortality is down all across the board; and there are fewer deaths;

fewer people are hungry;&nbsp;&nbsp; life spans have gone thru the roof;

biggest problem with primitivism for transhumanists;

he says:&nbsp; we want to replace our arms with robotic arms; want microchips inside our heads;

how abt flushing toilets (who wants to gt rid of those); humanity is getting better;

&nbsp;tech is working to make you live longer, better.&nbsp;&nbsp;

It took&nbsp; 20 to 30 years to make exoskeletons to get pople out of wheel chairs.

They (the primitivists) say that primitive life is better.

but we can travel to wherever we want to go.&nbsp;&nbsp;

<b>John Zerzan</b>:&nbsp; opens:&nbsp; they (the futurists) always open with living forever.

The cloud that is helping cure cancer... it is part of the usual <b>shell game</b>.

BUT tech is causing the cancer and then offers the cure.&nbsp; (he shows a full page ad

&nbsp;from perhaps IBM or MSFT).&nbsp; I consider&nbsp; transhuman. to be an unhealthy fantasy.

Zoltan mentions that 9 to 10K yrs ago&nbsp; agriculture&nbsp; imposed itself.

(he cites.. Paul Shepard... it's all there in the first step... ie there is an inner logic that

commences, even with the v first step of tech... an ever deeper control of nature

(which is&nbsp; a big mistake.)

It's not just the fringe things... transhumanism is the leading edge of the whole juggernaut.

Primitivism is a denial of that whole trend and questions its legitamacy.&nbsp;&nbsp;

He was interiewed by IO9&nbsp; ... he thought it went well; but&nbsp; then

&nbsp;the interviewer put in&nbsp; v negative statement at the end.&nbsp;

"Tech did not destroy the natural world,did not belittle women, did not create armies."

Perhaps it seems like we are wearing rosy colored rear-view glasses.

It's become a nightmare....he recites all the litany of global warming, acidification of oceans,

etc.&nbsp; Destruc of outer nature (ecology) but also&nbsp; our inner nature eg school shootings,

the absence of community; people are unmoored&nbsp; (the honor student comes out and shoots

up&nbsp; people);&nbsp; more chronic sick peole than ever;&nbsp;

<b>Zoltan Istvan rebuts</b>:&nbsp; he visited Anawatu? primititive tribe&nbsp; in 1995

&nbsp;sailed there as part of a 7 to 8 year (when working as Nat Geo photog)

sailing trip;&nbsp; got off my boat and chatted with the&nbsp; locals;&nbsp;&nbsp; he was doing photog;

he was the v first foreigner... the tribe Marcai... then later he filmed there for Nat Geo;

how much death and sorrow he saw there;&nbsp; huts made from trees; no clothes

except&nbsp; plant parts;&nbsp; half of people born there die by age 17 or so;

and perhaps 1/3 die in 1st year;

they do share; they are more intimate; friendships and bonds are potentially stronger...

they are stronger there;&nbsp; they did not share literature; science etc. that could raise the

mortality rate;&nbsp; Chief and wife were in constant state of mourning.

while life might be happier,but humans have suffered from nature for years...

just a part of the food chain;&nbsp; he has written abt it;&nbsp; online article;

nature of being a human;&nbsp; we want to survive and thrive;

we 15K jets up in the sky at any moment;&nbsp; we want to ascend and conquer nature....

he says... we are ultimat. after controlling&nbsp; are lifespan, health, even death;

John Zerzan... has one t piees abt shool shootings&nbsp; but the # of deaths is a tiny anomaly...

its unethical...&nbsp; he points a finger at coca cola and capitalism...&nbsp;&nbsp; but we've had probs

with random act of violence always.

one yardstick... I&nbsp; we further along in the process of life...

would any of us&nbsp; want to renounce tech...&nbsp;

we transhuanists want to conquer nature, conquer the problems that we've got.

wnt to worry abt&nbsp; creativity....

<b>John Zerzan rebuts</b>:&nbsp; comments on the group that Zoltan visited....

<b>they raised yams and they had a chief</b>.&nbsp; Every infectious disease is a dis. of civilizaiton...

he claims.&nbsp;&nbsp; Conquering nature as a trait to be admired... forget it!

that shoots right past me... v unhealthy&nbsp; (as is wanting to be an astronaut);&nbsp;&nbsp;

consider what it took to take that beautiful picture of the earth...

the beautiful first pic of Earth: the cost is destruction of this planet...

hard to shove&nbsp; the destruc of the biosphere under the rug;

<b>Hikikomori&nbsp; phenomenon in japan</b>..<b>boys&nbsp; stay in their room for decades</b>...

<b>School shooting are increasing</b>...

how many people swallow the american dream anymore?&nbsp; democracy?

or tech empowering us...but why do people feel disempowered...

how about the trend toward a common core in education; this leads to

decreased diversity in education...standardization...

<b>Robert Putnam wrote Bowling Alone</b>...&nbsp; gotten rid of real friendships;

3x as likely to live alone... just when tech picked up speed.

More loneliness;&nbsp; aren't we all wired together... it's a lie... we ain't;

<b>Closing Statement of Zoltan</b>:&nbsp;&nbsp; why is being an astronaut cool?&nbsp; this is a key distinction...

who are we, where are going with our lives;&nbsp; being an astronaut is the coolest thing;

what do prmitivists want?&nbsp; want to go back impossibly early... is fire too much?

with school shooting&nbsp; or happiness levels.... huge amt of tech coming in the next few decades...

(that Zoltan thinks will help ameliorate the problems raised by John Zerzan.)

eg having a microchip tracking you would invade your freedom... but will make things easier;

Harvard... sending a word in ones mind from India to France... problems of mankind

will be solved by technology....&nbsp; but&nbsp; tech is incredibly empowering... the human being

gaining ontrol over nature.

<b>Closing statement of John Zerzan</b>:&nbsp;&nbsp; people cooking with fire perhaps 2M years ago;

human capacity has been there for a long time.&nbsp; have not discussed overpopulation...

domestication really drove&nbsp;&nbsp; overpopulation; 2nd... industrial revolution... a sharp

spike in technology led to overpopulation;&nbsp; who built the skyscrapers...

mines, smelter,&nbsp; toxic dangerous grunt work;&nbsp; univ. forgotten where the materials are coming from;&nbsp; his friend says... you wanna go down in the mine... you must enslave millions of people

to have your toys (that are destroying our biosphere); keep the suicide machine going...

at the bottom of Zoltan's web page&nbsp; (we did not evolve thru millions of years to remain animals)&nbsp; but we ARE ANIMALS... I guess you feel it's better to become a machine;&nbsp; (end of the debate)

Questions:&nbsp; (Mine is first):&nbsp; to both:

to John Z:&nbsp; you obviously use technology; what do you use and how do you feel abt it?

to Zerzan Istvan:&nbsp; you sailed on open ocean for 7 years; didn't you value the communion with

Nature and the environment?&nbsp; (Also recall: sitting behind me: acquan. from Vogelsang:

God is Nature: the ultimate teacher)

they answer my Q:

John.. use of tech is a conundrum for me... some of my friends really renounce it!

Zoltan:&nbsp; I stilll contribute to and follow many enviro NGOs and hope for green tech to help

solve the probs of overpopulation and enviro decimation.

Q&nbsp; how abt&nbsp; infec diseases (would you renounce antibiotics)?

John Z: if you have&nbsp; decentralized populations;&nbsp; then you also eliminate a worldwide host...

if you have small decentralized groups, that inhibits spread of disease;

Q&nbsp;&nbsp; how are the&nbsp; transhumanists trying to reconcile&nbsp; power / control with oppression...

(totalitarian control) (I've just watched PBS Nova: Terra Cotta Warriors: echo of extreme

regimentation/ totalitarian control as in N. Korea)

Zoltan answers:&nbsp; transhums&nbsp; are totally splintered;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm&nbsp; at the extreme

pole of technism...&nbsp; I want total control over Nture... it IS&nbsp; danger of tech...&nbsp;

eg nuclear tech.. many tranhums really want to <b>keep the core of humanity</b>....

most&nbsp; tranhums do not want to move too quickly.. many transhums are concerned abt

terminators and want safeguards on AGI...&nbsp;&nbsp; lots of angst abt AGI....

many do not want to get rid of democracy, indiv freedom...

Q&nbsp; to John Z... how abt computers?

A&nbsp;&nbsp; well, how abt&nbsp; (all the Chinese having to mine rare earths and who work at Foxconn)

think abt all the suffering incurred to bring us the computers...

tech is not neutral...&nbsp; it's not neutral and it's never been neutral...

but it's a big problem... just like domestication... it must be stopped...

Q abt Spanish Civil War... how to proceed?&nbsp;&nbsp; how should the anarchists proceed?

John Z&nbsp; was there in Spain talking with old people who were there fighting the fascists;

(fielding a Q abt how the anarchists should proceed)

Q&nbsp;&nbsp; As&nbsp; transhums&nbsp; have gone from being sci fi&nbsp; to science eg&nbsp; Carmat.... 2nd transplant of a

permanent totally artific. heart: perhaps&nbsp; hearts that are like Olympian hearts will be next... lets say everyone could afford it ...when will we electively replace&nbsp; our hearts.&nbsp;

&nbsp; is it good for society, enviro, transhum&nbsp; is coming of age and its scary....&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;should we continue full speed?

A: YES... but need to take precautions....

Zoltan thinks people age 25 now in the room might live to be 150 to 200 if they die at all.

But maybe&nbsp; we need brakes on biochem, AI, nuclear risks...&nbsp; I advocate brakes on those...

we don't want to get wiped out....

Q comment:&nbsp; weath gap is the biggest problem;&nbsp; perhaps tech will go to the NSA and

we will be surveilled and tech will be out of our control and used against us.

Zoltan:&nbsp;&nbsp; I 've seen cell phones in poorest villages in Africa.... but 20 yrs ago nobody

cud afford a cell phone&nbsp;&nbsp; and same with robotic hearts;&nbsp; my argument&nbsp; Zoltan says

is to make this tech affordable to anyone around the world... may not happen that way

in our capitalistic sociey... the google guys seem a lot nicer (than trad. capitalists)

Q&nbsp; abt&nbsp; primitive&nbsp; life... how would the primitivists do it... what would they keep...

A&nbsp; from John Z:&nbsp;&nbsp; dropping out is not the answer;&nbsp; African holding up a can of coke

or a cellphone...(that's not progress)&nbsp; it's a nightmare; rather, it's announcing that you (the African with the cellphone)&nbsp; you will soon be part of the Machine.

(I chat with officers of Stfd Transhums Assoc:&nbsp; they have hosted several wonderful events.)</p>

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