.Transcript

(163) Tucker Vs Ted: The Israel Throwdown - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqHKzAx2ZZw

Transcript:

(00:00) Hey everybody, it's getting hot out there. I've got some epic summer plans coming up. I'm about to go on a trip with my family. I got another trip in the future with my oldest daughter. We've got some really fun summer plans coming up. What doesn't belong in your epic summer plans is getting burned by your old wireless bill.

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(00:59) Yeah, we've talked about some a lot of the good experiences that we've had with Mint and how how easy it is. All the plans, they come with high-speed wireless data, uh unlimited talk and text, they're delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You use your own phone, uh with any Mint Mobile plan, and just bring your old number, bring your existing contacts.

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(02:35) We're gonna mobilize the throne so that God can just go and crashing out of the temple and go God's like where we're going we don't need roads. Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen and I'm Dan Beecher and you're listening to the data over dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat that everpresent spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? Things are good.

(03:09) We're waiting in uh chest deep on this one today. We're we're going in hard and we're going in heavy. Yes, we are. We uh are going to cause uh we're going to ruffle some feathers. Yeah. Uh today, but uh I don't think it might be deeper than chest deep. We might we might need snorkels at this point. We'll see.

(03:33) I don't think it is not uh um contrason as uh as the kids are saying these days, I believe. Um in other words, it's uh not unjustified, but uh but yeah, we're going to be waiting into some controversy, which you know, we we don't ever do. So, we've never we've we we've managed to avoid it for so long. It's finally time. Uh so, let's the first half we're going to be talking about uh a subject that has come up thanks to of all people, one Ted Cruz.

(04:02) Thank goodness for him. We're all just so happy that he's around. Uh and Tucker Carlson. Uh I feel similar about him. And uh and then in the second and that's going to be oh heaven help us. It's going to be about Israel. Uh and then in the second half of the show uh we're going to talk about a psalm that is uh interesting.

(04:28) Yeah, I'm going to give it that uh one might say maybe a little problematic uh for for many of us. So so we'll get we'll dive deep into that. Uh but first, let's get into a taking issue. And this week's taking issue, we're taking issue with uh something that you know there this interview that Tucker Carlson did with Ted Cruz. Mhm.

(04:56) The main thing that sort of went viral uh was Tucker grilling Ted Cruz about you don't know anything about Iran and you want to blow him off the face of the earth and there's all this Iran stuff. Um but sort of what got lost in the shuffle was the thing that you picked up on Dan.

(05:20) um when he was talking when they were talking about Israel and specifically what happened was Ted Cruz said, "Well, I'm a Christian and in the Bible we are commanded to bless Israel." Yes. Which one which he seems to interpret to mean never question but always blindly support. Uh right. But before we get there, uh, Tucker Carlson immediately jumps on him. And Tucker Carlson is such a jerk in this interview. They're both jerks.

(05:53) They're both just insufferable humans. They you you would think they would be friendly to each other, though. But they're on the same team. They both support the same uh bad president. And yeah, they're both fascists. For the most part, they are in 100% agreement, but apparently not on this point.

(06:14) Uh, and so and so Tucker Carlson just if you disagree with him, apparently you're his enemy and he come he's coming after you with with both barrels. Uh, and so what he so he was like, "Uh, okay. Well, what what scripture is that? This this scripture that says that you support that you need to bless Israel." And uh, Ted Cruz didn't know. Yeah.

(06:36) And well, I loved I love that he was he was like, "Oh, I I don't remember. It's somewhere in the back you can." and he's like, "Pull up Google and look for it." And then and immediately Taco Carlson's like, "It's in Genesis." Yeah. Uh with like as much venom as as he could uh muster.

(06:56) It was like, "You child, it is in the book of Genesis." Well, and Tucker Carlson had clearly been planning his gotchas. So, of course, Tucker knew where it was because he was planning this gotcha from the beginning. Yeah. But, uh it is in Genesis, uh specifically Genesis 12. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Genesis 12, which is the beginning of the Abraham cycle.

(07:16) So, this is this is immediately after we we have uh Genesis 1-11, the primeval history. So, this is the the second main um set of narrative arcs of the entire book of Genesis. And here we basically have and it's pretty early in Genesis 12. Uh because you have in Genesis 11 that uh Tara was Abraham's father. He dies.

(07:41) He was 205 years old. He died in Haron. And then Genesis 12 begins. Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation and I will bless you and make your name great so that you will be a blessing.

(08:02) I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you I will curse and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Uh and in you could I I think that's probably an instrumental bait. So by you through you as um you know the the you are the instrument of their their blessing, right? And so the idea is Abraham's offspring, which right right off the bat, one thing to point out is that Abraham had a lot of offspring according to the Bible, which includes like Ishma, it's supposed to be the Arab people, um, and an awful lot of people beyond just the 12 sons of Israel. And so, yeah, and that's important to point

(08:49) out. Israel, aka Jacob, right? Is that am I getting that right? Uh, who who is Abraham's grandson? Yeah. Okay. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, right? So, uh, yeah, you're right. Like that's one line of the thing. But yeah, the Arabs, the Muslims, another line of I mean, if we're going to take this seriously literally, um, then this is not the actual ancestry of the Arab.

(09:21) No, of course not. Of course not. But it but if Ted Cruz were actually going to take his own theology seriously, he wouldn't be he wouldn't be talking about the state of Israel, the the current nation state of Israel. I guess I guess he'd be talking about all of the occupants of that whole region. Yeah.

(09:42) Including the Palestinians, the Iranians, the everybody. Yeah. If if you take this uh this lineage seriously. Yeah. But and and most people I think would I think the the audience of Genesis 12 and and this is probably a an exilic post exilic layer.

(10:09) This is this is probably written by people who were coming back to or um who had recently come back from exile. So cuz you know Abraham stranger in a strange land story kind of resonates quite a bit with the people who are coming back to to the land. Um the the whole sojourer thing. So um in this time period they would have understand understood Abraham's main offspring to represent Israel.

(10:37) Um they they would have been like eh we don't care about the [  ] We don't care about the Arabs. We don't care about all those other folks who are also ostensibly descended from Abraham. They probably had in mind Israel. Now the question is what does that refer to? It certainly doesn't refer to the nation state that was founded in the middle of the 20th century CE because the author was living 6th century BCE.

(11:03) had no concept of any of this and was probably not living in a period when there was a an actual nation where they had autonomy and their own identity. And so Israel almost certainly referred to the people of the house of Israel who were actually scattered well beyond the land that is labeled Israel in the Bible.

(11:28) Right? And so that you know Israel is the name of Jacob, the legendary autonomous father of the 12 tribes of Israel themselves. The legendary origins of the 12 tribes of Israel, the people of the house of Israel who you know the 10 tribes uh get carded off uh into force exile um force migration in 7:22 B.CE.

(11:54) They are disintegrated. They're no longer around. you have mainly Judah, a little bit of Benjamin, a smattering of the other tribes that are in Judah and Jerusalem. Uh, and they kind of take on the identity of the house of Israel. And so the people of Israel are who knows how far dispersed into the world and diffused among the world's populations, but overwhelmingly they are identified today with the Jewish people.

(12:29) Right? So, I think if you do actually take and and he says it's a commandment, but it's not. No, it's not. It's it's just it's just a like it's like a it's like a thing. I if people bless you, I'll be happy with them. I'll bless them. Yeah. And uh if they curse you and it's not like those are the two options. It's not like you are either blessing you or you are cursing. There's a lot of indifference.

(12:52) there's there's a it's a mixed bag and you know nobody unilaterally responds the same way. Uh and so yeah, this just doesn't make sense as a commandment. It doesn't make sense as something that that we should be expected to follow. But but Raphael Edward Cruz says this is I think he I don't remember what his exact words were but basically he said I was taught growing up in Sunday school right to bless the nation of Israel which a after uh Tucker pushes them uh pushes him on this he identifies specifically as the government that is currently headed up by Benjamin Netanyahu. Right. And that's

(13:33) this is a weird sort of thing that has happened. I like the fact that he said I grew up with this sort of ties him in with a movement that is that's been around for a long time, but it I think I think it really caught on in the middle of the 20th century. the this idea of Christian Zionism, which is a which which became a thing that uh you know like Jerry Fwell and Pat Robertson talked about, which is this idea that we need to support Israel and we need to support the Jews of Israel specifically, not and and kind of specifically in opposition

(14:12) to the Palestinians of Israel or what like any any other claim to it and frequently in opposition to the rest of the Jewish people. Uh which which makes up the majority of the Jewish people. Um and and all of this came from this idea that that some excuse me that the that the Jewish reoccupation of that land that happened in the middle of the 20th century was fulfillment of prophecy. Yes.

(14:44) in the Bible. This this is the first time since uh 63 BCE when this area was annexed by Pompei, the the the Roman general that there has been a formal uh autonomous nation of Israel. So it's it was a big deal, right? uh fulfillment of prophecy. Uh I don't think we can go that far, but for Christian Zionists, this is opening the door to the rest of the events that are supposed to precede the second coming and usher in Jesus's return.

(15:24) So for Christians, it's an even bigger deal that has nothing to do with the well-being of Jewish folks per se. It primarily has to do with their own esquetology and their own idea of um of the end times and the licking of the chops for the world to be destroyed. Yeah.

(15:53) And it's so interesting because there's this there you kind of hinted at it before, but there's this dichotomy between we must support Israel, we support the Jews, we're so anti-Jewish hate and all this stuff. And then and no and it's so disingenuous. There's no mention like I read several articles by Christians about why we need to support Israel and whatever.

(16:17) And there was always this like they're very anti-anti-semitism which by the way you the word anti-semitism becomes this bludgeon where no one's allowed to question us because if you question our support of the nation of Israel then we get to call you a Jew hater. We get to call you an anti-semite and and there and and just never address any of your concerns because you're obviously just bigoted.

(16:39) And then but they never mention like like I I saw one and uh one article and the there was a whole thing about Jewish hate is nothing new and it was decrying Jewish hate not mentioning who had been doing the hating for centuries. Yeah. Which it's when we're when we're looking at at least when it comes to Zionism. I mean most of the Jewish folks I know are vehemently anti-Zionist.

(17:07) Not all, but an awful lot of the Jewish folks I know are vehemently anti-ionist. Right. And so we have a a situation where you have a lot of Jewish folks who are being accused of anti-semitism for pushing back against the Israeli government, which is problematic.

(17:27) And and and this is particularly sticky because there is an awful lot of anti-semitism that attends Christian and and non-Christian, non-Jewish, anti-Zionism. Like there's definitely a problem with the anti-semitism that that we frequently see attending a lot of the anti-ionist rhetoric on the part of people who are Christian who who are atheist or who are um other things and that's a big problem and it becomes a matter of of just lumping in everybody and we end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater I think when when well we got to avoid anti-semitism and identify ing criticism of a

(18:10) government as indistinguishable from from anti-semitism, right? And and what's funny is I I see it's not funny, it's actually rather tragic and and horrifying, but I see a lot of Christian nationalists who seem to be doing the same thing with Americans. Like I saw somebody on Twitter today who said, "I used to love Colorado and now it's disgusting and I wish Americans would take it back for themselves.

(18:41) " It's like Colorado's one of the whitest states that has ever graced the face of this planet. Right? It's overwhelmingly Americans who are making it what it is today. And so it it sounds like they're saying if you don't agree with Christian nationalism with America first, if you're a progressive or a liberal or a leftist or any of those other labels, you're not even an American, right? which which kind of sounds an awful lot to me like this idea that if you don't support Netanyahu uh that that makes you anti-Semitic as

(19:15) if he constitutes Judaism or is the essence of uh Jewishness as if Trump is the essence of uh being American or or anything like that. There there are a lot of attempts to reduce this down to these simple and and ridiculous binaries on on all sides of this and related arguments.

(19:39) So I get really annoyed by those those attempts to try to reduce everything. Hi everybody, Dan Beecher here. Listen, it's summertime. The sun is out. You got more hours in your day. And the thing that I don't want to be doing in these beautiful summer days is hole myself up in my kitchen and spend hours cooking for myself and my family. I have nothing against cooking.

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(21:20) Hey everybody, it's getting hot out there. I've got some epic summer plans coming up. I'm about to go on a trip with my family. I got another trip in the future with my oldest daughter. We've got some really fun summer plans coming up. What doesn't belong in your epic summer plans is getting burned by your old wireless bill.

(21:40) While you're planning beach trips, barbecues, 3-day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. This is why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. With Mint, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money.

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(22:19) Yeah, we've talked about some a lot of the good experiences that we've had with Mint and how how easy it is. All the plans, they come with high-speed wireless data, uh unlimited talk and text. They're delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You use your own phone uh with any Mint Mobile plan and just bring your old number, bring your existing contacts.

(22:40) You can get rid of your overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three-month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/dogma. That's mintmobile.com/dogma.

(23:03) Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. Cement mobile for details. And there's this sense, you know, I think one of the problems here is is the linguistic problem that we so often run into, which is, you know, one word is a syncticy for other words or can be can be like the word Israel can be used to mean, you know, the new name of the guy Israel, the you know, the character of

(23:41) Jacob in the Bible or it can be used to mean his offspring or it can be used to mean, you know, a political group of people or it can be used to mean you it can be used a territory. Yeah. Yeah. It can be you Yeah. a land mass. It can be used to mean any number of things. And if you if like Ted Cruz says, if it's just and he and you know, Genesis 12 isn't even about Israel. Israel has not even been born yet. So, Genesis 12 is about Abraham.

(24:15) Uh which is a very different thing. But but then can be used as a synctic key for other things you know the Abrahamic religions we often hear about. Uh so it's like if we cannot get specific if we cannot if if you know at one point Tucker Carlson actually makes the point to Ted Cruz about well what is Israel? Are they talking in ancient in the Bible? Are they talking about the modern nation state when they and Ted Cruz goes, "Uh, you don't know what Israel is?" Yeah. Israel. And it's such a dodge.

(24:52) It's such a pathetic dodge. Yeah. and and it I don't know if it's insincere or just profoundly ignorant because he I would think that that Senator Cruz would understand that Israel can refer to geography, it can refer to government, it can refer to ethnicity, it can refer to uh Jacob, it can refer to all these things.

(25:25) And so, um, either he knows that and is just being dishonest and evasive, or he just doesn't know that. Yeah. In which case, holy crap, we have a lot of work to do to weed profoundly unfit public servants out of our government. Um, but and and and here's the part that that I I dislike the most about this. If this were a commandment to unilaterally support and endorse and champion the actions of a government, it would basically endow that government and whoever's in charge of it with unilateral infallibility, inherency, authority to do whatever they wanted. It could never be wrong. Yeah.

(26:10) And the notion that anyone merits that kind of authority is is just so far beyond the pale. Like that that's there's no case to make possible. Yeah. Like honestly I if a an almighty god made that kind of a declaration that God would have to make sure that in perpetuity the leader of that nation whatever nation it was could never make a mistake. Yeah.

(26:42) because that's the only way in which that kind of a commandment to support something could possibly make any sense. And even even within an organization, a global organization that does assert infallibility. Yeah. You have an awful lot of people being like, "Yeah, well, you know, um, and a lot of people who push back push back against the one person who is endowed with that infallibility, however they conceptualize it, whether they say, "Well, he's got to be wearing this robe and it's got to be this kind of day and the weather's got to be such and such." you know, like even the people who want to reduce the context for infallibility

(27:17) down as as tiny as they can make it, they're still like um they give a lot more wiggle room to that than than this idea that well, bless Israel, you got to you got to um you know, because I was taught as a child in Sunday school this and and let me like the things that you are taught as a child in Sunday school, you should have outgrown because a lot of them are being taught to you precisely because you're a child, right? And you're not thinking about these things in the ways that they need to be thought about. And the frameworks

(27:56) that people use to transmit these ideas and these identity uh markers and things like that to children, you're supposed to outgrow those. Unfortunately, a lot of people instead of outgrowing them, they just find ways to rationalize their preservation, even if it means, you know, creating institutions that go out and try to create pseudocience to defend the notion of a 6,000-y old Earth and a global flood and a boat that all the animals on the entire planet uh descended from the the animals that were on there. like it's you're supposed to

(28:36) outgrow those things. It's so interesting, you know, that I I went on to a a website called Christians United for Israel. Mhm. Uh which claims and may well be the largest organization uh for uh the promotion or in defense of Israel in the country. They have they claim to have over 10 million members. And you would think that that would be a comforting thought to Jewish uh to Jewish people around the world. It is not.

(29:16) Uh most most Jewish people that I know of and you know in polling most Jewish people wildly mistrust the uh the the Christian especially the evangelical Christian defense of Israel and as the kids are saying yeah they should distrust that because it is uh there's an agenda that is motivating that uh that support which is very much one-sided and isolated and and um very targeted.

(29:51) It's it is it's a de it's a poison pill because it these people uh you know they like I like we said they they they believe that this is all in service of getting to the end of days getting to the escaton and at that point they assume that Israel will be then handed over to them the Christians. Yes. as the fulfillment of that prophecy and blah blah blah.

(30:15) It's it's uh it's like preserve it for the Jews so that we can have it. Yeah. So that God can then say, "Thank you. I'll take that. Now this goes to them." So uh yeah, it's um is pretty bad. And yeah, and the notion that this that these ideologies are so deeply entrenched in the power the halls of of the US government. Yeah.

(30:38) the in among the people who make decisions about going to war. Uh and and this is and this is one of the reasons that a lot of people think Tucker Carlson was pushing back against Senator Cruz. A lot of people have pointed out he seems to be very pro-Russia. Uh Iran is uh is a big uh supporter of Russia that they're mutually supporting.

(31:04) And so it's not that Tucker Carlson suddenly have had a bout of conscience. It's uh it's that he has a very isolationist and um in many ways pro-Russia uh approach to America first. Uh whether that's the case or not, whether that's motivating things, I don't know. It certainly is reason to not throw your hat into the Tucker Carlson ring. Yeah.

(31:29) Yeah. just because you might line up with him once on a thing. Don't don't don't get pro Tucker by any means. Um but but yeah, we the the notion that we would be going to war with Iran uh using Israel as a proxy even though they are not developing a nuclear weapon.

(31:52) Like all of the experts are in pretty widespread agreement about that. Um is is it's baffling to me. Uh and and yeah, trying to leverage the Bible as as rationalization for that. Got to do better, man. Got to do Do you want to know one of the one of the biblical uh references that I saw made about Iran and uh and Israel? Uh did it have something to do with Gog and Magog? Yes. Ezekiel 38.

(32:22) I don't I don't know what that is. Like I I read it and then I went and checked out Ezekiel and was like, "Wait, that's not about now." But none of this is about now. That's the other thing is that like one of the things that you and I have talked about a lot is that all of these people who are very into the idea that, you know, this is all the fulfillment of the prophecies of Revelation and Daniel and whatever. Uh no, no, no.

(32:47) It was very clearly about a very specific time and that time was a long time ago and and we can and when you look in Ezekiel like Gog and Magog are a place and a ruler of a place as near as we can tell. When we get into the book of Revelation, they seem to be both rulers of places rather than one and and the other.

(33:15) like even the the authors of the New Testament are at quite a distance from the composition of of that quote unquote prophecy and so are interpreting it in in different ways. And now people are like, "Oh, it's Iran, it's Russia, it's China, it's Turkey, it's all and and it's whoever I don't like." Yeah. That's really all it is.

(33:32) It's you're just looking at the world and uh through the lenses of this is coming, this is in the post, this is going to happen. So I I got to be ready for it. and which is literally understanding the Bible as kind of a Ouija board as a way to defi to define define the future which as we we've talked about in in the recent past is is something a lot of people um kind of unwittingly use the Bible to try to do but but looking at these things that were Ezekiel's about the 6th century BCE Daniel's about the 2n century BCE revelation is about the late 1st century CE The gospels are about the late 1 and

(34:08) early 2nd centuries CE. They're not looking beyond that, right? They're looking at their own times. They're trying to prognosticate out into the near future. Yeah. And they're they're hoping that something happens. They're worried that something happens. They're warning people that if they don't change their behavior, maybe this will happen.

(34:27) That's what those prophecies are. and the the fact that geopolitical events will can pivot on somebody's interpretation of one of these biblical passages just like I just makes me so disappointed in humanity. Uh like come on. Well, the other thing is that like when we say, "Oh, that was fulfillment of prophecy.

(34:54) Oh, that was fulfillment of prophecy." That totally disregards the fact that that events since the 1st century CE have have been said to be the fulfillment of the same prophecies throughout the centuries. Yeah. When some world event happens, you know, in the 600s, in the 1600s, in the whenever, somebody was saying that's the fulfillment of this prophecy. The escaton is around the corner. Yeah.

(35:22) Yeah, that's been that's been a a line an unbroken chain of uh of of proclamations since Revelation began since Revelation existed. You know what I mean? When everything is a fulfillment of prophecy, nothing is a fulfillment of prophecy, right? Like we people can find ways to interpret anything as a fulfillment of prophecy, as 666, as the Antichrist, as all of these things.

(35:53) Uh, and yeah, it's all it's all how they're negotiating using this text to inform their experiences, give meaning, give significance to their experiences today. And there's not really a circumstance where somebody's going to be like, uh, I can't see anything that fits. Sorry. Like, everything gets to be a fulfillment of prophecy, which again means nothing is actually a fulfillment of actual prophecy.

(36:18) Not for nothing, none of them have has actually led to the escaton. Uh it it has yet to happen. It won't happen this time unless you're a predtoist. Um Oh, sure. We got to we got to do a a segment on predtoism at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody remind us that we wanted to do that. I'm not writing it down right now, so I don't know. All right. Uh well, I think that was fascinating.

(36:44) the I think um yeah, watch out for your maybe may maybe give a little gentle nudge to your family members who think we're in the final days and just you know just just be like no what's happening is just geopolitical tur turmoil and uh we shouldn't support war of any kind uh especially the kind that is really really hurting a bunch of people and and especially not because a book from 2,000 years ago commands you to support the actions of a government. There's there's no such thing. Yeah. All right.

(37:18) Uh let's move on. Uh our next thing is going to be a chapter and verse. And this week's chapter and verse uh is a psalm. Yes, we're in the Psalms. Where are we at? We're in uh 1 137. Yeah. And this is a there are nine verses in this psalm and I actually want to go through the whole thing just because um it starts it starts in an interesting way and and there's actually a passage in here I've used many times in the past uh in my scholarship that is distinct from the one I want to land on. Um but it is a mercifully short psalm. Some of them can

(38:00) be yeah it's it's one verse longer than Psalm 82. My my um the psalm I've probably done the most work with. But it begins uh by the rivers of Babylon. So we're in the exile. So not written by David. Um Oh, how dare you. There we sat down and there we wept.

(38:24) When we remembered Zion on the willows there we hung up our harps and there our capttors asked us for songs and our tormentors asked for mirth saying, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion." And here I'm I'm thinking of um Blazing Saddles. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Swing low chariot. Um never heard of that.

(38:49) And and here's the verse that I've used before where they say they lament how could we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land. And and this is a passage I used to illustrate the fact that Adonai's purview or authority, sovereignty was understood to extend to the borders of the nation of Israel, but not beyond that. Once you get beyond that, that's the purview of of some other deity. And this is why we have Ezekiel is like, I can fix it.

(39:13) I'm going to put, you know, I'm going to give God wheels. We're going to mobilize the throne. And he and so that God can just go crashing out of the temple and go God's like where we're going. We don't need roads. And like that's Ezekiel's way of solving the problem. And then Psalm 82's way of solving the problem is is uh God sue the other gods.

(39:38) Uh God stands up and and um presents their reeve, their their lawsuit and deposes the other gods of the divine counsel. And then the psalmist calls on God to rise up and inherit all nations. In other words, the seats of the divine council sit empty. You now take over all of the divine council for yourself. And that universalizes Adonai's rule.

(40:02) But here we have another reflection of this idea that we're in a foreign land. We can't access Adonai. We can't see Adonai. We're not going to sing the songs of Adonai. Um and then we get in verse 5, if I forget you, oh Jerusalem, let my right hand wither. Let my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you. If I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy.

(40:21) Remember, oh Lord, against the [  ] the day of Jerusalem's fall. How they said, "Tear it down. Tear it down to its foundations. Oh daughter Babylon, you devastator. Happy shall they be who pay you back what you have done to us." And then we get the impregatory. Happy shall they be.

(40:46) And the word here in Hebrew is ash which is the exact same word that is translated in the septuagent as uh makari which is what is in the biatitudes. Blessed fortunate happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock. Yikes seen yes that's that's the end of of this passage. So it's a lament. Uh it's it's an exilic lament.

(41:12) They're lamenting the fact that they're outside of Adonai's purview and they're fantasizing about the folks responsible for this force migration getting their comeuppance and it you know the the climax is the very end happy or blessed shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock.

(41:35) In fact, I think the Septuagent Yeah, the the Septuagent here has macarios, the exact same word that's in the biatitudes. So, what do we do with that? Right. It does seem a little macob. Yes. Amazon 1 Medical presents Painful Thoughts. I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them.

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(43:27) is part of the claim here that Babylon when they took over and kicked everybody out that they went and dashed Israel's little ones against the rock. Um I think the the assumption is that because it says happy happy shall they be who pay you back what you have done to us, right? Yeah. I think the assumption is that this would be um this would be reciprocal.

(43:54) they would be doing to Babylon what was done to Israel. Certainly there would have been as a part of the conquest of Jerusalem and this forced migration there would have been people who would have been executed in the course of the conquest and also probably for show afterwards like we see that from the Assyrians.

(44:14) We see that even in the um the wall relief in the the palace in Nineveh uh that shows the uh the sacking of Lakish. You see people, you know, being impaled. You see babies dying. You see this kind of thing. So So yeah, certainly that would have been a part of the uh Babylon's. So, it's kind of the the the dark side of the golden rule coin, which is do do unto others as they did unto you, the upside down uh of Yeah.

(44:46) And and um didn't we recently hear somebody say that? Didn't I'm trying to remember when this happened, but somebody some prominent commentator, I don't know if it was a politician, it might have been, but somebody said the golden rule was do unto others as they've done to you. Oh my gosh. And the idea was, "We're going to get you back.

(45:06) " Um, oh, I got to look that up. I got to figure out who that was that said that because that that deserves its own uh its own video at some point. But yeah, it it is it is fantasizing about revenge, about vengeance. And I mean, if you're a group that's been forcibly migrated into another nation and people are trying to basically destroy your identity, um it's I'm not saying I'm justifying it. I'm just saying I understand. Yeah.

(45:36) And so, um the fact that it's included in the Psalms is not a huge surprise. But it does leave us with the question of okay now it's it's in the authoritative literature and if if you're a Christian for instance it's inspired it's univocal it's inherent it's infallible so what are we going to do with that um yeah it is yeah that's a tricky like fantasizing about killing children seems uh particularly nutballs.

(46:18) But I will say this, uh, I I peaked at the psalm immediately preceding this one. Uhhuh. Uh, 136, and it's a it's it's it's a praise of God, uh, and his work in creation and history, it says. Uh, and one of the things that it talks about is, yeah, you know, this is the God who liberated us from Egypt by killing all the firstborn. Mhm.

(46:42) and specifically calls out the killing of the firstborn as being this wonderful thing. So I So like child murder is kind of in in the zeitgeist here. Yeah. And and it's a time period I think when there's an and we've talked about this in a recent episode. There's an awful lot of ethnosentricity. There's an awful lot of othering. Yeah.

(47:07) And and you know the you have that representation of God as these are my people. everybody else. Me. Um there's an awful lot of that. You're going to you got to wipe out every living thing that breathes. Leave nothing alive. Uh there there's an awful lot of that which obviously includes uh children. And unfortunately that rhetoric still there there are these vestigial bubblings to the surface of this kind of rhetoric when it comes to children.

(47:38) And I know uh members of the LDS church are familiar with similar rhetoric back in the the 19th century where uh people would say that you know you um and and I'm forgetting um exactly what the words are but basically uh you got to kill them before they develop into Mormons because then they're you know they become this that and the other. And you hear the same thing uh in the the early to mid uh 20th century.

(47:57) The same kinds of things were said about Jewish folks. And today the same kinds of things are being said about Palestinians. And so there's there's an that rhetoric is not unfamiliar. And the the devastating effects of that rhetoric are still being felt. Uh and so it it's a problem.

(48:24) But I wanted to I wanted to share a little bit about some of the way uh early Christian and Jewish interpreters read this because uh there's there's a a guy origin of Alexandria and I think origin of Alexandria is one of the unsungers of early Christianity like he he was condemned as a heretic for some stuff uh a little later on uh even though he is responsible for I would say like some of the the most important features of early Christian orthodoxy.

(48:54) Origin was the one who who um put them on the road to where they went. Give me a time frame where where origin is uh 3rd century CE. Uh in fact, if you'll give me just a second. And he was uh I believe he was a presitter uh in uh Alexandria, which is uh northern Egypt, right by the the delta, right by the Mediterranean. I believe you'll find it's in Virginia.

(49:20) We were just there at a We were just there. You should You should have known that, Dan. Uh, uh, born around 185 CE. Died 253. Okay. CE. So, um, Alexandria, province of Egypt, Roman Empire. Yeah. Probably somewhere around Ty is where he died, which was still in the, uh, Roman Empire, but no longer uh, in Egypt.

(49:48) So, um, he's responsible for a lot of stuff, but here's here's what he says about this. Blessed is the one who seizes the little ones of Babylon, which are understood to be nothing else but these evil thoughts that confound and disturb our heart. For this is what Babylon means. While these thoughts are still small and just beginning, they must be seized and dashed against the rock who is Christ.

(50:13) and by his order they must be slain so that nothing in us may remain to draw breath. And that is going back to Joshua 11. Uh like I said, the the command to kill everything, leave nothing alive that draws breath. And so origin here is is um skipping over the literal sense, right? And going right to um what he calls the anagogical sense there. origin argued for four different layers of of meaning for scripture.

(50:46) You had the the literal, the allegorical, the moral, and the anagogical. And the anagogical was the highest. That's what we should be focused on. We should be striving to understand the scriptures in their anogical sense. I don't know what that word means.

(51:04) Can you explain what he meant by anagogical? He he he writes that it is what you are to strive for. Um Okay. So, it's a method of, and I'm just reading off of um a website here, a method of interpretation that focuses on the spiritual or mystical meaning and its relation to the afterlife or ultimate destiny. Um, so it it's basically what is the ultimate goal or end of of what's going on here.

(51:32) And for origin, this idea was that we are supposed to take the little ones of Babylon, which is a metaphor for our evil thoughts and inclinations and motivations, and metaphorically smash them on the rock that is Jesus. Um, so that's nice. I'm fine with that. It's nicer. Yeah, it's it's a lot better than talking about actually killing ch children. That's uh that's much better. Yeah. Um and and this is actually this becomes pretty uh pretty widespread.

(52:00) You have uh a handful of people within Jewish as well as um Christian tradition that understand it this way that that this is about sinful thoughts, evil inclinations. Uh because Babylon becomes a metaphor for all that is evil in the world.

(52:22) And so whether it's demonic spirits or our the sinful desires of our heart, we got to take those little ones and we got to smash him against the rock and and in the Hebrew Bible the rock is Adoni, the God of Israel. For Christians, the rock is Jesus. So that becomes a widespread sidstepping of the apparent um phenomenally immoral uh blessing of those folks.

(52:51) And and then you also have um another common reading is to understand this as not a call for people to actually do this but a hope that God punishes folks who will murder uh you know other children in like manner. So it's basically saying oh this isn't this isn't talking about us. This is talking about God. He's the blessed one. So God is the one who is going to uh be meeting out these punishments uh that uh you know are responses in kind to whatever kinds of sins people commit.

(53:25) Yeah, that seems that seems a trickier interpretation considering the the plural nature of the happy shall they be. Well, actually, let me let me Oh. Oh, yep. You better you better check. Check the Hebrew. Check in the Hebrew. We are in 136. Where's 137? There's 137. Um Ashray.

(53:49) So, uh, that's a particle and it looks like that's the masculine singular. Oh, yeah. So, happy. So, it' be better translated. Happy should he be. Yeah. Or happy as he who will pay you back. All right. Well, there you go. Yeah. So, um, there are a bunch of different ways to handle this, but, uh, but I think this is a good illustration of the fact that everything is negotiable and everything has to be negotiated if you want to try to extract consistent principles from the Bible.

(54:20) You're going to have to deal with these things that that at first glance and and at correct glance do not fit. And so, you have to work your way around them. You've got to negotiate with them. Well, and also if we're going to if we're going to take origins theory as a as as a jumping off point, the literal version of this, the you sort of the literal interpretation of this psalm has nothing to do with anybody now.

(54:46) It's it's like nobody is now lamenting their uh you know their exile in and and their you know the Babylonian Babylonian conquest of their people. So no Babylonians around right now. So literally like the only thing the only way you could possibly make this relevant to yourself is to find some sort of either allegorical or or metaphorical or figurative uh way to to to look at it. Yeah.

(55:19) Which inherently is a is an interpretation is a negotiation as you like to say. Yeah. As as is my won't. Um and and and that als that raises the other point. Does it have to be relevant? Do we have to preserve every last syllable of the Bible? Or can we say this was a vengeance fantasy? Um you know that that expired long ago. So we can just be like, huh, they were they had undergone an awful lot of trauma.

(55:55) uh trauma theory and and trauma lenses I think are a great way to look at an awful lot of what's going on in the Bible. Shout out Alexiana Fry who's doing great work on that and she's on social media too if you want to check out her work. Um and that's you know that stopped being relevant right over 200 years ago. Yeah.

(56:13) Yeah. or just see it as interesting literature that you don't have to think of as like sacred and holy to your life that you have to find the way to make it useful to you or whatever. Yeah. Um I think the you you know I'm I'm sure that there are a lot of actors who have played roles where they did terrible terrible things. Yeah.

(56:35) and learned things from that but didn't like go on to be like it's important that I that that you know I uh I kind of live this out like you there are ways to learn take lessons from awful awful things without endorsing the awful awful things uh and and you know if you then go to you know you go to Jonah from here which is about the Assyrians who did the same kinds of things and even worse to uh Israel.

(57:01) And this is why Jonah was like, "No, I'm not preaching destruction to them cuz you're just going to forgive them and I would rather die than watch them be forgiven." Uh like you have a very similar sentiment. And then God wags the finger at Jonah and is like, "If I forgive them, you know, you got no case. You got no leg to stand on.

(57:27) " And the cattle, consider the cattle, right? Um I forgot about the cows. So um so you have differing perspectives between Jonah and and Psalm 137 and uh you know when you impose that presupposition of univocality which you get to choose which direction you're going to go. Yeah. I think I think that I mean like I guess thematically for the whole show the idea is uh overcome the bad readings. Yeah.

(57:57) Yeah. Don't don't leverage the Bible to do harm and evil. That's that's a problem. Yep. Absolutely. Mayosphicas as they one of the first things we learned in Spanish in the MTC when means less effective because they were they were trying to teach us uh methods that were efficias. Okay. Um because they didn't want us to learn like bad things like stupid.

(58:24) Um, so we learned to call everything manosphicas. Okay. All right. Well, hopefully this has been effic. Thank you all so much for joining us. of you would like to become a part of keeping this show alive and uh and vibrant and also gain potentially early access to an adree version of every show and the afterparty which is bonus content weekly done by us. You can go to patreon.

(58:54) com uh/data overdogma and become one of our patrons. We so appreciate it when people are able to kick us a couple coins. That is always a lovely thing. Um, if you would like to reach us, it's contact at data overdogmapod.com. Thanks so much to Roger Gaudy for editing the show and we will talk to you again next week. Bye everybody.

(59:21) Data Overdogma is a member of the Airwave Media Network. It is a production of Data Overdogma Media LLC. Copyright 2025. All rights reserved. Are you interested in the parts of history that remain a mystery? Do you want to learn more about the historical myths and misconceptions used to prop up false belief today? I'm Nathaniel Lloyd.

(59:46) In my podcast, Historical Blindness, I delve into all of these topics, sharing puzzling tales from the past, and examining hoaxes, conspiracy theories, and misremembered events that provide insight into modern politics and religion. New episodes every two weeks. Find Historical Blindness on most podcast players and platforms.