20260630 Q&A

Q&A: Audience Discussion and Concluding Thoughts

(1:20:02) And so, I'm going to get a glass of water as Leandro starts assembling your questions. Leandro is behind because I bet the discussion has been I bet the discussion has been uh vivid already. Lots of exciting discussion. Um You know, one thing we can just ask if you haven't already all been saying it, I'm sure you have, but what your own take on on on Judas is, whether um you know, you continue to see him as this great villain or you have some sympathy for him think he can be rehabilitated the the free will question all those things you may be have your own

God's Role in Betrayal

(1:20:42) your own take on it and so we'd love to hear that in the comments. So in the queue IRD says Why does God need to create a guy just to betray God? So So exactly so this is one of the questions I think that emerge is because um because what happens first is there is a guy who betrays Jesus and then later um Christians come up with an idea for why Jesus had to die and in fact so that so that comes after so we have the betrayal first we have an explanation and then we have Jesus' death first we later have an explanation

(1:21:30) for why that death needed to happen and then have to go back and try to explain why the guy needed to happen and so and so it is not something that that is is made up first and then you know with a plan behind it it's rather in terms of the Christians anyway it's Christians needing to explain something that's already within their tradition that doesn't have any explanation built into it.

Judas as a False Prophet?

(1:21:57) um What is that I don't know what that >> What Mehmet it's a donation. >> Oh I didn't see that. Mehmet to Coglu thank you for your support. I didn't see that as a donation I get it now. Okay. Thank you so much. Mehmet John Houston says >> Turkish Lira >> Turkish Lira thank you Mehmet. Um, to uh Houston says "What if Judas didn't screw up and he saw that Jesus wasn't the true Messiah due to him failing to establish a kingdom on Earth and freeing Israel? What if Jesus was the false prophet?" So, so yeah, that's um that could be your

(1:22:42) own uh rehabilitation of this character and to your own, you know, your own uh take on the on the story, right? So, so this is um I don't think that's necessarily that I mean it's I'm not sure that that's that different from the um the take from Jesus Christ Superstar, although we'll know better when we when we actually watch it.

Judas in Gnostic Tradition

(1:23:03) But, as I was reading the summary of it, um it sort of seems like that's Ju- Judas' motivation that um when the songs are kind of saying, you know, when we started there was none of this God talk, you know, but now that you've been come so focused on that, I think we you're losing your way. Um, Ricky Palacio says, uh how did Okay. Ricky Palacio says, "How did Judas become part of the Gnostic tradition?" So, um so a lot of these texts um were circulating widely, and so uh many and so although we have some sense that there were Gnostic groups in the first century, a lot of

(1:23:44) the texts that we have like the Gospel of Judas come from the second century, Ricky. So, um so almost certainly um the author of this text has access to some of those same texts that we have in the New Testament. And so, they're aware of Judas because they've read uh the canonical Gospels.

(1:24:06) And so, or at least some of them. And so, as a result of that, they are um they're taking the story as they've heard it there, and they are reinterpreting it and and rewriting it based on the Gnostic understanding of the truth of the universe. Uh and so and so they read the the proto-orthodox gospel and they say this can't be right because this is how we we know a different truth.

Divine Necessity and Moral Culpability

(1:24:33) And so that's how then the Gospel of Judas is author writes a completely different version of that. Uh Paul R. Home says, the discussion of Judas' culpability reminds me of the issue of whether uh Joseph's brothers were wrong in selling him into slavery since that was needed to complete the plan of him being in Egypt. >> [laughter] >> So um So yeah.

(1:25:01) So the So this is sort of an interesting idea. So did um was there a divine plan that the Israelites had to be in Egypt or is that um you know, I'm not even sure that that's listed in any way in Genesis as um something that God was going for. It's simply something that that sort of ends up happening. Um and so I don't even think actually in Exodus that um that you know, anyway that we're anyway that God is saying to um the patriarchs, "I'm going to send you to Egypt so that you can become a great people and then I'll lead you out of Egypt." It's rather

(1:25:38) they um Joseph ends up in Egypt because of this thing that happens. Um he's then favored by God and is able to rise to this uh position of authority. Uh and then um and then once they're there um they're they're crying because of the you know, the burdens of their taskmasters and and God hears their call and sends uh sends a deliverer.

Judas' Motivation and Canonical Accounts

(1:26:05) Um Saint Brush, oh thank you so much for your uh support. We really appreciate that. So Ron Wagner says, "I remember something about Judas turning in Jesus to the high priest that Judas thought if he turned Jesus over, Jesus would rise up and reveal himself as the son of God, but that he didn't happen when and then Jesus shows regrets um and and and that actually hangs himself.

(1:26:34) I can't remember where I read that or saw it in a show. So, Ron, that's not in any of the canonical gospel accounts, but it again, I have we we Winter and I are going to have to do our our uh Jesus Christ Superstar as one of these one of these times here soon because I I sort of think that that's not that different from um what the plot is there so that uh that he's attempting to turn Jesus over and uh to not to um uh not to have him killed, but to knock some sense into him or something like that. I think that's what's happening. I

Viewing Gnostic Gospels

(1:27:09) I got to watch that movie. So, anyway, I think that you maybe you're remembering the plot of Jesus Christ Superstar or some other uh like you say, some other show, but it's not in the canonical gospels anyway. Um Cole 333 says, "How should we in Community of Christ view uh Gnostic gospels?" So, um in Community of Christ, uh you know, we have sort of an unofficial motto, "Truth wherever it's found.

(1:27:40) " What we do when we are looking at um at ancient texts uh including texts from Christian groups that have alternative perspectives, um we can look at them and see, you know, look at what wisdom they contain um in the same way that we can see, you know, within the texts that made it into the canon, um that they have in some cases problematic passages or even contain propositions and ideas that we um you know, get into dialogue with and we we dispute.

(1:28:12) Uh we can do the same thing with uh, with Gnostic Gospels in the sense that we um, um, there are some things that are ideas in them like the uh, uh, focus on um, on knowledge and and the importance of knowledge and also in a lot of cases uh, the mystical path of for um, for connecting with the divine. Um, on the other hand, you know, they also have um, ideas that are, you know, less uh, positive from maybe from a Community of Christ perspective, which is that they are, you know, pretty elitist.

(1:28:51) And so when we um, you know, when I was talking about how um, a Gnostic within a uh, a proto-orthodox community might be viewing all of the the fellow Christians in the church as being kind of cattle that are being led astray by these um, uh, uh, leaders that are getting it wrong. And that's sort of an elite perspective that's only only we're the only kind of real people here, that kind of thing.

(1:29:17) And so that part of it maybe is less embraceable or, you know, where it's not what anyway, not less aligned with uh, with our understanding of the tradition or what we value in the tradition. But um, but I think it's it's very valuable for us to see the diversity of of thought and ideas within the early Christian tradition and also to understand that these ideas evolve and develop.

(1:29:45) You know, so when I was talking about um, um, how Christians initially don't have an explanation for um, why was why was Jesus killed? They weren't expecting Jesus to be killed. They later um, came up with those ideas and that helped to inform, you know, the Christian conception of the divine. So it's so the um the experience of the historical Jesus, the stories that are written down, the ideas of other early Christian writers, those all inspired um the theology and the vision of how the divine operates in the world that

Suffering, Sin, and Universalism

(1:30:22) Christians um came to um develop, you So, Cobra, thank you so much for your support, Cobra 969. Um Kafka House says, "If the cross is about suffering, did anybody suffer more than Judas? Maybe sinners can be forgiven." So, yeah. Um so, there's definitely uh a case that many um have made. So, a big um tradition within Christianity is universalism.

(1:30:57) So, a lot of Christians argue um that Christ's salvation is for absolutely everybody. That everybody can um can ultimately um repent and be saved. You know, that the That's why they're called universalists. That the salvation is universal. And so, um and Ju- Judas here in the account in in Matthew certainly suffered even in the um poetic justice accounts like Papias's account, it sounded like he suffered an awful lot.

(1:31:28) If If, you know, and obviously this is a fictional uh end that these guys have, but um we don't really know what the histo- what what happened to the historical Judas since we have alternates um stories uh traditions preserved that are more like what people would like to have happened than what we what maybe happened. Um And so, and so, yeah, this is more likely a thought experiment for us as we um ask, you know, about you know, kind of tough questions like that.

(1:31:57) You know, the the kind of counter to um universalism of often is, "Well, wait a second. Um, are we saying that, you know, people, terrible, terrible people like Hitler are ultimately going to be in heaven? What kind of heaven is that then, right? And so, and so, how do we understand, um, um, that kind of, um, understanding of, uh, you know, rehabilitation, of, uh, forgiveness, of, um, of, of, whatever eternal life might mean in different in different understandings.

Modern vs. Gnostic Rehabilitation of Judas

(1:32:30) So, K. Tempest Bradford says, do you think the Gnostic impetus to rehabilitate Judas comes from the same source as modern ones? Modern's looking at the story and say, that makes no sense. Um, it's it's sort of an interesting, um, I I think it's a sort of an interesting thing that both came to kind of the same place because, um, the Last Temptation of Christ, which has a pretty similar, you know, ends up having a pretty similar take, at least of the the story part, not the not the Gnostic cosmology part, but as the Gospel of Judas, that wasn't the

(1:33:08) author of that, uh, novel that the or book, anyway, that the um, that the movie is based on, they wouldn't have been aware of the Gospel of, uh, Judas because it was lost at that time. It was only found afterwards. And so, you know, this is an example of kind of two different readers from very different times, um, coming to kind of the same idea that, um, here we have this story.

(1:33:35) What if the story actually is that, um, that Jesus took, um, this guy aside and and told him that I need this to happen. And so, um, and so, in, excuse me, So, since both, um, an reader and a modern reader kind of took at look took a look at that story and produced a same counter narrative, um, I think that maybe it is coming from the same kind of impetus.

(1:34:10) It's just something that is a natural reaction to how somebody reads the story. Um, I think that there's also for the Gnostics, um, like other groups, there is a, um, we see in our early texts kind of a a sense that, you know, you claim different authorities and then denigrate the opposing ones. And so, um, uh, Gnostics, for example, you know, like Judas, they like, uh, Thomas, they like Mary Magdalene, um, as their sort of authorities.

(1:34:47) And so, we have a lot of texts that sort of lionize all of those and portray people like Peter, who's the central, um, proto-orthodox apostle, they portray him as as being a dummy and all kinds of and as not getting it. Uh, and so, and so in the same way, um, uh, the proto-orthodox are, you know, portraying Thomas maybe as a as somebody who doubted Jesus, um, and and not counting, you know, Judas, of course, as a traitor.

(1:35:15) And so, so I think that there's a, um, because the apostolic authority is central to everybody's um, argument about how you have authority within Christianity by the 2nd century, um, people are creating traditions that are connecting them to various apostles, uh, in order to make their own authoritative claims.

Alternative Portrayals of Judas

(1:35:37) And so, I think that that's another thing that's an impetus here for, um, the Gnostics. Koester says, "Are there other books from the first centuries that portray Judas as more than just a traitor. Um So, I'm trying to think there's another So, there's another Um there's a There's a I think there's So, there's an infancy gospel.

(1:36:05) It's not from the 1st century or 1st two centuries though. So, I think that they're all they're all later. There's um there's other pseudepigraphic gospels that um that are docetic that are having um uh they're having it so that Jesus isn't even the one that is crucified, but actually it's Judas that's crucified in his place and he just looks like Jesus.

Judas in Mormon Theology

(1:36:27) But, I think these again are are all later. So, I think that this may be the earliest one. I'm not thinking remembering in any of the other Gnostic gospels that we've had where Judas is a as a character that's been reformed. I'll have to look at that again, but I don't think so. Um does any of Cole asks, "Does any of the interpretations of Judas' betrayal in Gnostic texts line up with how the his betrayal is presented in the Book of Mormon?" Um so, Cole, I'm going to have you I don't remember how Judas' betrayal is is is

(1:37:02) presented in the Book of Mormon. So, I was thinking about um one of the things that um I was thinking about with uh uh you know, as a overlap with Mormonism is the Mormon Book of Mormon or the Mormon interpretation of um uh at the Adam and Eve story. So, the um the retelling in Mormonism of the Adam and Eve story um has Adam and Eve being presented with two contradictory commandments and essentially not not not really sinning because they have to pick be fruitful and multiply and that um will only happen if they eat the uh fruit of the

(1:37:41) tree of knowledge. And so, and so in that in sense is actually a good thing that they do it as opposed to um entering into uh bringing sin into the world and and entering the world into the perishable sinful realm. And so that's not an interpretation that um is in the original text of the Eden uh story, but it is one that's um you know, exists in the in the 19th century after the entire you know, lengthy development of the idea and doctrine of original sin from Augustine and everybody onward.

(1:38:17) And so it'd be interesting because of um that reframing of the Eden story and original sin and so forth in in Mormonism, it may be interesting if if that's happening in the Book of Mormon with Judas. I'm just not remembering that. So you'll have to write down in the notes there. Maybe Leander will give it to me. Um Paul uh I'll also look it up if not.

Necessity Argument for Jewish Involvement

(1:38:37) So Paul R. Home says, "Are there any writings that try to give the same necessity argument for Jews in general? In other words, the counter uh Jews killed uh Jesus argument." Um so Yeah, absolutely. Um I mean, let's see. I'm trying to think in like Acts, um there is a text that say um it's you know, where they're speaking the I think maybe one of the apostles is speaking to um Jewish leaders and Jews in general, "Friends, you you were acting out of ignorance.

(1:39:16) Your rulers the leaders of uh the community acted out of ignorance. And so in this way God fulfilled what he had told about the you know, all the Messianic prophecies, but it wasn't that you were doing it on purpose, but rather um there was a you know, it was a necessity because this was predicted by all of the Old Testament prophets." >> I think Peter says that.

(1:39:37) >> Oh, it's Leander says it's Peter who's saying that in a in a in a in a big speech that he gives in Acts. So, yeah, um so I think that that um so that in general that that goes along with this um this Christian reading of all of the Hebrew Bible as um as informing the life of Jesus. In other words, that all of that Jesus is the fulfillment of scripture in the same way that, you know, he is the Messiah and that everything that the Old Testament speaks of the Messiah and is fulfilled in the Messiah.

Historical Authenticity of Judas

(1:40:11) And in that sense um you know, it's not every it was all necessary and you aren't necessarily individually all to blame for that um in terms and that might be an one of the examples of how you square that circle. Uh K Tempest Bradford says, "Do you think um Judas was invented uh by Mark and if not, uh who do you think invented Judas if you think he's invented?" Um so I don't think he was because uh um the the same, you know, you know, the same kind of details exist in um you know, the passion story is a little bit

(1:40:51) more complicated because um there there is more agreement in the in that story than with um the Gospel of John and the Synoptics uh than others, but essentially we have, you know, the same um figure with the same name including the same surname in in both of those kind of sources and so it's I'm not I would I would I'm thinking that it is probably not uh invented by uh by Mark.

(1:41:21) It's possible that there is a um an earlier passion proto-source that influenced both Mark and John. Um but it has it's not fleshed out enough that I've ever been able to even actually do a whole lecture on that. Um so I guess what we can say is that um, there are a lot of historians of the, um, you know, the first century and the biblical scholars will say, you know, the main thing that we know about the whole thing is that Jesus had someone who handed him over uh, to the authorities on the on the night of the Last Supper

Value of 30 Pieces of Silver

(1:41:55) and that that person's name is Judas Iscariot, but everything else we don't really know about him or the inventions of the, um, of the uh, the gospel writers. So, um, Kaiwan says, "What would, uh, 30 pieces of silver be worth adjusting for inflation?" And I don't I don't know. I'm sorry to say, Kaiwan.

(1:42:21) It's always hard to do those things, um, uh, it also it also wasn't clear if you take it back to the, um, the time of, uh, I think Zechariah, who is where that that original figure is coming from, where he's, uh, where this figure of the, of the bad shepherd is throwing the the, um, 30 pieces of silver at the potter. But, um, I don't know.

(1:42:47) It's not It's not like it's not like, you know, like 500 talents, like, you know, like when the, you know, these vast sums that are, uh, in some of Jesus's parables. So, it's a smaller amount than that, but every coin is worth a lot for poor ancient people like, uh, Jesus and the disciples. So, there we go. Thank you all for all of your comments and for all of a great discussion.

Concluding Thoughts and Next Week

(1:43:11) Um, remember that next week we're going to be talking about Justin Martyr, the first Christian philosopher, a very interesting thinker. Um, thanks also for, uh, liking and sharing vid- this video. That really helps us, uh, get more people watching and so on. And thanks again for everybody who's been donating. We'll see you all next week.