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A Historian and a Theologian React to "Dogma" - Centre Place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZGCBh_SUlw&list=PLEnqfPnCRxLKqM_A7vmYc9xZ2xZcg-itw&index=9&t=1157s

Transcript:

(00:00) Our uh topic, I guess it's our >> You have to say our topic tonight. >> tonight. >> [laughter] >> is part of our series uh of where Leandro and I are reacting to different uh in this case it has been uh Jesus-focused movies. In this case, Jesus is not appearing in this film or

(00:21) does he or does Christ? Maybe, we'll see. Uh as we are looking instead at a um kind of Gen X uh '90s in It's not It's not exactly an indie film because this one actually had a budget. Um but essentially from the um uh this movie from the person who kind of revolutionized indie films in the

(00:44) 1990s, Kevin Smith's um kind of religious spiritual exploration {slash} also just trying to have a good time comedy satire uh Dogma. And this is one of people have asked for. >> didn't know this was the same creator of Clerks. You didn't know that? >> No, I didn't know I mean I knew that I

(01:04) knew about this movie. I knew about Clerks. I didn't know there was a connection there. Yeah. Well, so you knew you hadn't seen this movie. I had not seen this movie. >> And you haven't seen Clerks. I haven't seen Clerks. I've seen [clears throat] clips of Clerks.

(01:19) So So yeah, I'll just say in terms of my bona fides, um I'm I'm from this generation, right? Gen X. So I was born the same year as both Kevin Smith and Matt Damon. Uh and I saw Clerks in the theater uh when I was in grad school in in Ann Arbor. So just in a little indie

(01:38) theater. And I was also really you know kind of struck by it as a different kind of thing. Here's a movie that was made at for whatever it was, $20,000. Um just a really uh something that like it that was it was very dialogue-based. It was very Gen X referential where there's all

(01:54) of this people who were regular working-class people talking to young people talking to each other kind of feeling a little despondent about the future. They're in dead-end jobs. And their their conversations are revolving around uh you know, making Star Wars And you

(02:10) see some of those themes here as well. >> Some of the themes are are are continued to be explored here. And and this created for Kevin Smith as he went on to become um uh you know, he continued to be an indie filmmaker. He although he had a big backing of of Miramax which ended up

(02:27) being a um it was at the time the the main indie film studio whatever owned by Disney. But unfortunately also you know, it's obviously the the Weinstein company. So it's this uh has this ends up having this clouded future and at present that people didn't know about at the time or

(02:45) I didn't. And um and so and so after Clerks um Kevin Smith then did what he thought would maybe be a little bit more commercial movie called Mallrats. And so he brought two of these characters, Jay and Silent Bob. He's he's creating what he's calling His company's called the View Askew and it

(03:03) becomes the View Askewers, I guess. And so Mallrats I think wasn't as well received. Um anyway, it's just filmed in a mall actually in the suburb next to where I grew up. It was one of the malls we would go to when I was a kid. That sounds like a movie I have. You might

(03:17) have seen Mallrats. Then he had one that was more of a breakthrough called Chasing Amy. And then this Dogma is the fourth movie. And I think he wanted to do this one right away, but he was afraid that it was it was too much uh for him at he wasn't um he hadn't had enough experience as a

(03:33) filmmaker to do this one right away. So I think that's why he held out. And so this one's the first one that had a lot of budget. And then it's also of all of his um films set in this universe, this one is the one that had the best of the block box office. It's generally

(03:46) considered a successful movie. Certainly a movie that has been very very thought-provoking. I watched this when it came out too, but I haven't seen it since until when Leandro and I watched it was it last night? Some two nights ago. >> Two nights ago. So the movie Disclaimer. Yeah. So the

(04:02) movie begins with a series of disclaimers including uh this you know, it's saying what a disclaimer is. And then having defined disclaimers um uh he goes on to morel saying uh we're making this film start to finish as a work of comedic fiction. It's not to be

(04:21) taken seriously. To insist that any of what follows is incendiary inflammatory is to miss our intention. And passing on to judgment. And passing judgment is reserved for God and God alone. And that goes for film critics. You're not supposed to pass judgment. And I almost stopped watching at this

(04:39) point. It's like really why do you need to do this, right? Is it Is this really necessary to put this thing at the beginning of the movie or like what are you afraid of? Um and I guess like we we did watch we did watch together that The Last Temptation of Christ. And

(04:56) this movie was They also put a disclaimer on the front of that. >> almost like 10 years earlier. Right. >> But it had this terrible backlash and actual violence at theaters. Yeah. And so you could see why um you know, there would be a little bit of concern. And

(05:12) Well, well they did but this happened. But in terms there was already backlash for this one. So so before it came out um uh I've read about this anyway that apparently a an early script um was leaked. And then a lot of people were protesting based on that script even

(05:29) though I think the main things that they were really upset about those didn't actually make it into the film anyway. So it's like an early version of the script. And I think you were saying that that then it actually also uh Kevin Smith himself >> Kevin Smith actually did go to one of

(05:43) the protests against his own movie which was a you know, just very successful marketing move because then people saw that on TV and they thought, "Oh, this is this is great. Let's go watch this movie." Well, and then the other thing that happened too is that um it spooked uh

(05:58) Miramax owned by Disney. And so the the the potential backlash spooked Disney. Disney refused to distribute it. And so again um you know, the now very discredited white Harvey Weinstein created his own distribution company in order to distribute this movie. And so there is

(06:17) um anyway, so they I think they're they're reacting to that. So then this continues. But I I do think that in addition to that this is a good disclaimer for us as viewers to remind us, "Okay, this is not the same thing that the creator of The Last Temptation of Christ for example is

(06:37) trying to do this. I don't think Kevin Smith here is trying to make theological statements. I think he is trying to make a funny movie. Yeah. Now that is very debatable like whether the movie is funny or not. But but I'll I'll let you be the judge of that. I'm usually very suspicious of

(06:57) comedy in general. Well, and and so yeah, so I think that it's a it's an I I believe that it's actually quite an earnest kind of spiritual exploration on his part at from a person who is is a you know, not a trained person in any of these things. But in other words, based

(07:13) on his own spiritual feelings as someone who grew up uh Catholic in a generation that was starting to kind of also feel like you know, the the world was bleak. You can kind of see you know, that those same um issues in Clerks where those characters are are worried about you know, what you

(07:29) know, what is their purpose in their life? Are they going to be That's the one thing that I really appreciated about the movie. It It gives us a snapshot of what was happening happening in the religious landscape of Gen Xers in the '90s. >> Yeah. Uh and I think he does a pretty

(07:48) pretty accurate job at that with silly things added, of course. Yeah. Although we were kind of silly anyways, so >> [laughter] >> but So the disclaimers go on. I think this is sort of the disclaimer um now starts to maybe be a reference to all of the credits at the beginning of uh Monty

(08:07) Python and the Holy Grail where the credits start talking and it's talking about my sister once ate a moose. So anyway, now it's this you know, remember God has a sense of humor. Just look at the platypus. And then we also apologize for platypus enthu- to platypus enthusiasts,

(08:21) [laughter] you know, anyway. So they don't want to you know, they don't want to upset anybody. Thanks again. Enjoy the show. So that's the disclaimers as we So from there then the movie starts. Ready? >> Let's go. So we start in Kevin Smith's hometown on the Jersey Shore.

(08:36) And there's a boardwalk like all of these uh great Jersey um old cities have. And there's I guess what's meant to be an indignant man who is nevertheless quite smiley. And he is waiting for Skee-Ball presumably to open up. But as he is just enjoying >> tending there. Just being happy looking

(08:57) at at the ocean. Right? Yeah, maybe so. He's definitely just enjoying it. But then suddenly uh some of these um rollerblader uh street hockey kids from the you know, Jersey Shore which I guess I didn't end up ever watching. Did you ever watch the reality TV show Jersey Shore?

(09:18) Which is later, right? So but it's so the idea I think it the idea is that they um anyway, I don't want to characterize it. I never saw the show. So anyway, but anyway, so this is a It's a rougher place, I guess. >> [laughter] >> No, reality TV is a is a very

(09:33) incomprehensible con- you know, concept for me. Okay. And so these kids uh end up beating up the old guy uh you know, mercilessly. So And then from that we cut >> don't know what happened. >> Yeah, we don't know. >> to him or who he is or who these kids are. We only know that they are in this

(09:56) this city where Kevin Smith is from. Right. And and this is all pre a pre-credit sequence. So, it's like a teaser before the credits like in Star Trek or something before the whole series and the main show opens up and it's cut very tightly. So, the action is moving fast.

(10:15) We run now to uh a uh a press conference in front of a Catholic cathedral where a cardinal played by George Carlin is out announcing essentially the the re-christening of this cathedral as part of the Catholic I'm sorry Catholicism wow program which is rebranding

(10:39) uh this age-old faith of Catholicism to something that is more with it for you know being able to speak to young people in the 1990s. Yeah, and I I have to say when when you start looking at like old church pamphlets and things like that not just Catholic but from

(11:01) other churches. Yeah, there's this like I I would like to say that this is very exaggerated but it's not so exaggerated. I've seen just crazy you know goofy cartoony ways of presenting religion in a way to appeal to younger urban audiences. Now, what I see here happening is like

(11:25) maybe like an exaggeration of the whole Vatican II uh effort to modernize the Catholic Church but it also applies to Protestant churches in this period trying to I would say it's like a contextual theology move in a way if you will like the contextual theology the idea is that

(11:50) you you can impose one kind of expression of religious religious expression everywhere. Now, when we think about that we think about okay how the Christianity is expressed perhaps in Africa or South Asia or Korea but it also applies everywhere including North America of course because North America

(12:15) is the has a context. Right. And so in a way this is a this move that these churches are doing at the time is trying to make church relevant to the lives of people in this particular part of the world at this time but of course it probably didn't go the the way it was

(12:37) intended and so this is a satire to that effort. >> satire to it and I think that I mean I think it's a fairly I think it you know one critique that's probably you know true here is that uh there are are from my experience in in being part of a church hierarchy and also by the way um

(12:56) as a a representative of our church on the Canadian Council of Churches so that I also get to talk to the other leaders of all the denominations of the Christian churches in Canada there is a little bit of the leaders are all older guys you know like George Carlin who are

(13:09) trying to do something that's going to be cool for younger people or would not cool but let's say you know they want to do something to update it contextually in that sense and maybe it's not going to be that successful. So, in the particular movie he's saying the you

(13:21) know the crucifix is pretty grim and so they're replacing this image of Jesus with buddy Jesus. Jesus is your buddy and and and I I don't think that that's entirely something that didn't happen. So, I do think that for example evangelical pop music I always kind of

(13:37) call this like you know Jesus is your boyfriend kind of kind of thing as we were really singing these kind of pop love songs and and so I do think that this kind of thing does happen in this kind of contextualization although not to this particular satire of it. This is satire

(13:53) so. Did Jesus Jesus loves you and that's it that's all you need to know. You don't need to know the the the the bad parts the suffering. So, yeah smiley Jesus what the you know I grew up in going to Catholic school and it was all smiley Jesus not like that kind of smile

(14:08) but still was But the problem is as we're maybe going to find out in this movie you know is that when you are are having Jesus as your buddy Jesus here um then when all of the different people are experiencing suffering in the movie and specifically where they feel like their

(14:25) life isn't been fair to them they have no way to process how that works. What is that how why would that be? Isn't Jesus my buddy? Why hasn't this been why why is my life like this right? >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I just I just have took this frame cap of George Carlin is a is a very funny

(14:41) comedian. He's um I mean in the simultaneously at this kind of time period he was like the Rufus from Bill and Ted's excellent adventure and all those kind of movies right and he's been a lot of other things but um he's I think you know fame I think pretty famously an atheist comic and so

(14:56) he did this cuz it would be fun to be a cardinal right? But but one of the things we should point out just like the disclaimers this is also played not played really a lot of people are not playing this very realistically. It's not meant to be. There's all kinds of

(15:10) cartoony things that are happening and also the way people are acting including certainly all the facial expressions and accents and everything that George Carlin's doing you know and that's meant to emphasize the surrealness I think of it. Or indeed the Kevin Smith indeed cheap

(15:26) style I don't know you know so maybe that's part of what it is. It was also one of the things well we can talk about that later. Let's talk about So, we we go from there and then we cut cut again. This is a very tightly cut intro. We haven't gotten to the opening credits

(15:40) yet and so we cut to an airport in Milwaukee Wisconsin where Matt Damon who is identified as Loki is having a um a little discussion or actually kind of a a discussion about religion with a nun. Yeah, and it's Loki right? It's called Loki and of course he's played by Matt

(16:05) Damon. >> really a name of an angel. Right. Well, not in yeah so that's true. I mean so uh we we will eventually be described Do you want to do you want to go through the description of him as long as we're >> Let's go through the Okay. >> through the scene. And then uh then we

(16:20) next are identified with the second person next we'll find out is another angel Bartleby. Of course he's played by Ben Affleck and they have just become um had a breakup film I guess Goodwill Hunting right before this and so they've become >> of movies. I yeah so actually I don't really um

(16:39) I just think that this is how they've become like this is right at the beginning of like an entire now career of being buddies. Uh and so and this is I think maybe the second movie where they're kind of have started down that path. And so um so anyway Matt Damon continues on and

(16:56) he's has this sort of uh I I think not very convincing >> [laughter] >> you know um um thing where he's you know talking about I don't know the problems with organized religion and and faith and all this kind of thing and why there's no God and and a fairly um

(17:14) juvenile discussion has then unhinged the the nun who decides >> [laughter] >> that she's she's lived her life wrong and she needs to you know now go off and you know what what's she going to do now that she's become a nihilist. And then when that ends yeah so Ben

(17:31) Affleck is rolling his eyes I think because the Matt Damon's points aren't very good but it's so worth it. But I think that conversation is very important because it really sets the tone of what people had in mind at the time. These conversations were happening and not necessarily that

(17:50) people were saying smart things. People still don't say smart things today but definitely >> saying you could make good arguments. >> [laughter] >> But if you if [clears throat] if you're making good arguments then that's not the point. What we're showing is like a snapshot of what was going on at the

(18:06) time and these arguments against organized religion that were happening at the time that were perhaps not as sophisticated Okay. as as you can imagine. >> a popular conversation and this is reflecting that. >> it's a pop arguments. Yeah. And so she as she decides I think to

(18:25) relive think her life but then you know it turns out Bartleby tells Loki that you know here you've had made this entire argument when you know there's a God because you stood before God because we are angels and all this kind of thing and so I guess Loki just likes to mess with

(18:42) people we hear. But he's a trickster. Oops. Yes. Well, that's the thing. So, so it is it is interesting that his name that they've decided to pick this name Loki because again Loki obviously is as we know I mean a Norse God as a and a part of this trickster thing and is not

(18:59) as he's going to be revealed the angel of death is not the name would not be that name so he's eventually revealed that he is the original angel of death so the the angel that God sends in Egypt or to Sodom and Gomorrah they specifically in rains fire and brimstone on on Sodom and

(19:20) Gomorrah and he's also kills the firstborn of Egypt right? The angel of death. Um and that um you know may well you know so a name for that might be something like Mot which is the the Canaanite God of death that gets downgraded to be like an angel of death in the biblical stories but

(19:40) instead we have the name Loki and Loki's not really a God of death I don't think maybe it's death is one of his things but >> No, but it's it's one of these Norse Gods that like in in Ragnarok is is going to be like one of the fighting sides and it's going to

(19:57) bring the world to Right. Right. >> to an end. Right. >> But but then there's like a a new world but but there is there there is this association with Loki and the death of Balder and destruction and and chaos to an extent but he's primarily a trickster, right?

(20:16) Right. And you know, so yeah, so he's like part of the archetype of like Coyote and in indigenous traditions or like the the youthful Hermes in Greek mythology where he's running around and stealing Apollo's cattle and that kind of thing, whatever all the things like

(20:32) that. So it's more of that kind of a figure as opposed to the god of you know, the bringer of death Thanatos or something like that but um I think that part of the I think though that one of the reasons why he might be Loki is that um uh Kevin Smith is a huge

(20:47) um uh comic book guy. Oh, okay. >> And this movie this time this movie is set in the same kind of time period that uh the comics / graphic novel series uh The Sandman that Neil uh Gaiman made it is made and there are all of these kind of cosmic figures that

(21:09) include one of the major characters in that is Loki. >> That's Loki. And um and Death is another one. But anyway, and then uh and then there are also um uh you know, Satan's one of the major characters in that but then also there's two angels uh that God sends to

(21:27) um take over hell when Lucifer quits hell. Right. And one of them is an angel of silence, Duma. And I I just kind of feel like there's both these two angels here and the and some of the things that happen including like cutting off wings and things like that that some that there's a major

(21:44) influence maybe that the Sandman comic has on on this uh And even this this theme of mixing mythologies with Right. The Greek and >> of different places, Greek Norse uh Israelite. Right, that's right. Yeah, exactly. All right. So, they're having their little conversation. Um

(22:03) uh the Bartleby explains that he's actually what his role is as a one of the watchers. And so this is a name for you know, a type of angel especially that's focused in the um the Enoch traditions. So, all the books of Enoch and essentially these are the um these are drawn from that uh

(22:27) uh those some the watchers is also part of that tradition that's in Genesis where they talk about the sons of God and the daughters of men, you know, met together and their offspring are the heroes of old and things like that. And so, he's obviously not a watcher that is

(22:42) um has has taken a wife because we make it made very clearly in this movie that angels are non-gendered which is correct theologically, you know, that um and so it's not one of those kind of angels but that's the idea. And so the magic power therefore that Ben Affleck

(23:00) has is that he he's watched everything that everybody's done so he knows everything. And so he he likes humans, he knows about them and so he's pointing out >> that's at least at this point in the movie. >> At this point in the movie, yeah. And so he's just pointing out like their

(23:17) qualities and things like that how and and uh um one of the things that's happening here is it's also interesting you know, they he come like they they go to hang out in airports so they can watch when like people come out of the gate and see each other. And this is obviously this is all

(23:31) pre 9/11, you know, kind of way to do you can't airports aren't like this anymore but this is something Mike who lived in Milwaukee and he and his family would go to the airport and do this. You know, where they would go this is the airport. Yeah, but you can obviously

(23:44) after 2001 you can't do that anymore. So, um this is the we're still before to the credits and and so this has been quite fast moving to us set this all up. So, one of the things that's happens now is Bartleby tells Loki I've got I've got a way to get us back. They've not been

(24:01) able to they've been kind of exiled here in Wisconsin. >> told us already what the problem is? No, I think they just start talking about the solution. How about we even know what the problem is? >> know what yeah, you're right. Which is very common. It's a very common thing

(24:15) that people do. But that's that's also smart to set a movie up. It makes you want to watch it. So anyway, they found the solution. The solution is the same um church that we saw uh Catholicism Wow and um and the main the main thing that we also find out about it, you know, there's Buddy Jesus

(24:31) again. The main thing that we find out about it is that there is going to be uh they're going to be giving out plenary indulgences. So, when you go to this uh when you go to this special church part of a part of the idea is you're going to get a plenary indulgence if you walk through

(24:45) the gate uh of this church to be part of it. And so, I don't know that they explain what that means yet either. I don't think they explained that. Yeah. So, we can explain it when it comes to it. But anyway, but that's the they've got that's the set up. Uh and

(24:58) then oh and then they and then they also they must say that they're going to get back to heaven. So, they know that they're they've got like 4 days until this thing comes off and then they'll be back in heaven. And so, while they're doing it um they decide well, the last 4

(25:10) days they're going to go on a killing spree. And so, they kind of say that out loud which shocks the uh the lady in the elevator and he says, "Oh, I'm not going to we're not going to kill you, don't worry." And I think at this point is still we we still don't

(25:22) really know what is is going on but we begin to learn a little bit about both characters. The one uh Bartleby seems to be the more the one that is more sympathetic to humanity and Loki seems to be the one that he thinks that his duty is to go and just kill

(25:41) >> Yeah, smite. >> sinners. Right. So, he's the angel of death. That's been his function. >> He wants to do his job in according to the way he understands his job. All right. So, that was the >> [laughter] >> That got us to the opening credits and so the um that um

(26:01) that was a I think a very economical portion of the movie. Uh we next introduce uh our protagonist who is in Catholic church in McHenry, Illinois. And this is Bethany. So, Bethany is named for the village near Jerusalem in the Gospel of John where uh Lazarus is from and his sisters Mary and

(26:26) Martha. Uh and the her priest is mentioning I think maybe about the Catholicism Wow thing but more importantly for the plot is telling us that that uh that vagrant guy uh is now being called um Catholic John What is it? No, it's some New Jersey Joe. John Doe New Jersey, whatever. I don't

(26:49) remember what he's called. Anyway, so he is he is in a coma and because of uh because he's indigent because he's homeless the the hospital wants to pull the plug on him but the um Catholic church is is protesting that as part of their broader pro-life policy. They are

(27:03) against euthanasia in any event and so they're that's introduced as a thing. Um and so then oh, but you also wanted to say Yeah, no, but we we can continue and we can talk about uh Bethany in general. Yeah, it turns out that Bethany even though we first see her at church

(27:20) hearing about all the Catholic church anti-euthanasia positions now also turns out she works at an abortion clinic and you have all these supposedly Catholic protester protesters outside. >> I don't know if they are but I this is in this movie it seems like we have a

(27:40) very Catholic framework. Okay. >> Yes, you have she's Jewish but everyone else seems to be Catholic and there seems to be nothing else. There's Protestants are mentioned as a thing. >> one Protestant in the the mayor of the city in New Jersey is a Protestant. >> But other than that seems to be a very

(27:59) Catholic framework that we're we're talking about. So, yes, let's say anti-abortion Anti-abortion activists. This is the kind of thing that um I think hopefully it's I mean it maybe it is still continuously happening. I probably with Roe versus Wade is over. If if

(28:14) these guys are still all doing this, I don't know. I I've seen that here here not too long ago. I don't know if they were Catholics or what the but yeah, that that still exists. All right. >> [laughter] >> So, that was happening and it certainly probably still exists then. And Janeane

(28:28) Garofalo who's her friend who works uh at the place as well who's Jewish um but is like many Jewish people uh kind of a post-religious cultural Jewish person uh is uh giving her advice as they're kind of talking about the meaning of life and Janeane Garofalo can't really believe

(28:47) that Bethany still goes to mass and all these things. >> And again, this there's a parallel here between the conversation that Loki was having with the nun at the airport. We're not talking about very sophisticated arguments but you know, her friend here has a very

(29:02) just practical approach and like why would you go to church if you really if you don't believe in anything. Do you believe in anything? And the interesting thing when we first see Bethany, this character is that she's at church reciting the Nicene Creed. I believe in

(29:21) one God, she says. That's these are the first words that she says in the whole movie. Uh but then it turns out that she doesn't really believe. She has lost connection with with her God that she says she remembers a time when she was a child when she did feel moved by

(29:44) religion, but she clearly doesn't feel it anymore. And but she still goes to church and I think that also shows all how a lot of people were at the moment. Still you had to go to church, maybe every now and then, maybe not every Sunday, but really you just didn't

(30:04) feel like there was anything there, but you still had a something in the back of your mind that made you go. What is that something in the back of your mind? And the the movie is going to explore that. What makes you go to church? I I think that when she was talking about having

(30:20) faith when she was a child, I think this is where she makes the analogy that um you know, like that faith is like a glass of water and when I had when I was a child, I had a very small glass and the water filled it up. And now I have a big glass and and the water

(30:32) doesn't fill it up. And and I think that this is also um also a appropriate indictment of churches which is that they um teach something to kids which uh doesn't isn't quite right for in other in order to take um in order to be useful as an adult because um there's a desire

(30:53) to really dumb things down and tell, you know, tell stories in a very different way and you know, to children. >> Mhm. And so then it doesn't it that doesn't immediately flow into it. In other as opposed to doing something foundationally, it's almost like a a very simplified and and incorrect way of

(31:11) teaching things to kids. And so I think that that's been a problem um and one of the reasons why uh you know, when we when we did our intergenerational program, we tried to teach, you know, the exact same lessons to kids as what we would teach to adults, but just in a you know, in a way

(31:27) that is more engaging maybe. And I I do remember just going to catechism classes in the '80s and yeah, we were I guess I I don't know if my little glass was filled at the time or not, but definitely [laughter] it was very simplest a very simplistic and literalistic

(31:51) approach to reading scripture. Oh, the world was created in six days, but no one told you, but you know, this is just a story, isn't that how it really happened? So Yeah. And then you grow up and the only thing you remember about religion is well, these priests and nuns told me this nonsense

(32:11) this rubbish. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, oh, and that's Linda Fiorentino is the as Bethany. Do you know her from anything else so that maybe other people are better you haven't seen >> She's a known face, I guess. I don't know. >> You're the one who watches all the

(32:31) movies. >> I know, but somehow I didn't see a lot of her movies. Okay, so next we're introduced to someone who is called Azrael, just like um Gargamel's cat on the Smurfs. >> [laughter] >> So So Azrael turns out that uh Azrael um interestingly in the so he's a demon as

(32:49) we can kind of see from his horns there that in the um he's not in the Bible. He is a um but in Islam. So in the Bible we we have this idea that there's four archangels, but biblically only Michael and Gabriel are named within um the Christian Bible uh I'm sorry, the

(33:10) Protestant Bible. Within the um within the Catholic Bible, you also have uh in the book of Tobit, Raphael. So we have three archangels. So so usually everybody knows who three of the archangels are, but then the most common uh from the Apocrypha, I think fourth

(33:27) archangel is Uriel. But in Islam, it becomes Azrael. And so Azrael is uh the Muslim fourth archangel and he's the angel of death. And so um because of that was in Islam that re made its way back into Jewish and Christian mysticism as well. But so in some ways

(33:46) though they're not meaning so he's obviously not the angel of death because the angel of death is Loki in this movie, but anyway, so that I don't know exactly why they picked Azrael as the name here, but he's one of the demons. All right. And that's played by Jason Lee who's

(34:02) somebody who also had a lot of different movies with um Kevin Smith. And he turns out is the leader of these little guys. So these are the Stygian demon brigade, I guess is what they is what they're identified as. And so he's the uh they're his henchmen. We find out.

(34:19) Anything more you want to say about Azrael? Okay. So next Next >> Bethany has a vision. So >> bush. >> Yeah. Pillar of fire appears or burning bush appears. This is a place of uh revelation. Although she doesn't immediately see it as such and so she sees it as a fire and

(34:38) puts the fire out using a fire extinguisher which gets fire extinguishing all over um Alan Rickman. And this >> [laughter] >> figure here. And uh when he she's going to hit him with a bat uh the bat turns into a fish. So he obviously has all sorts of magical miraculous powers.

(34:59) Um he identifies himself as Metatron. He's not going to rape her because he points out that angels do not have genitalia. Angels are not gendered. So this is Although I mean, depending on what you mean by gender, they are sexless, but they do have genders. In this movie.

(35:17) Well, they're played by male and female actors, but they are not gendered. Okay. So I don't know. Anyway, they shouldn't >> Again, depending on how you define gender. Yeah, depending on how you define gender. In any event, the the angels are are not meant to be gendered the way

(35:32) humans are. So this is one thing this is actually someone must have told that to Kevin Smith and he knows that. He made a big deal out of it and he he with a fairly cheap prosthesis that doesn't look very realistic, he showed that a couple times, [laughter] you know, in the movie. So he wanted to

(35:46) make a big deal about that. But he also um shows off his wings. >> showy, not very impressive. Well, he's he's used to being a inexpensive filmmaker, I think. And so in any event, so this is the this uh Metatron explains who Metatron is. You Had you heard he he she has never heard

(36:08) of Metatron. Had you heard of Metatron? Uh I don't know. It makes me think of cartoons and transformers. >> Megatron. Megatron, yeah. So Yeah, there you go. It does seem like so so it does seem like apparently it's not clear what the etymology of Metatron is and and so like like Megatron, you

(36:24) would you could think it's Greek, right? >> Right. So cuz meta is also a Greek word as as is mega and tron. And so and so one of the the folk etymologies of his name from Greek is Metatronos. So the the the angel beyond the throne. And so and so the idea and so the idea

(36:45) of it is is that he's you know, like you know, like right there at the the side of God. He's in a lot of the traditions the the apex angel and that's how he's presented in this movie. And so he is at the very top. He's the voice of God like the voice of Sauron in

(37:01) in the Lord of the Rings. Uh God every time um in this movie anyway, every time uh uh you hear in the Old Testament that the that someone has been talked to by God it's actually the voice of God that has said that which is the angel Metatron. This guy. Which

(37:22) so which is probably actually not Catholic theology. So Metatron is not biblical. Metatron is in um all kinds of different, you know, Jewish and Christian mysticism. It's in the apocryphal books, the Enoch texts and so forth. Um uh and he has different kinds of different ways he's understood. So in

(37:38) some of the Enoch books um he's the he is the angel that Enoch becomes when the biblical patriarch antediluvian patriarch Enoch is taken up into heaven and becomes a divine being. He becomes Metatron in some of these things. But in other things, he's >> That's in third Enoch. I think that's in

(37:57) third Enoch. >> Yeah. And uh in some of the other uh understandings of him, he's actually the angel Michael since Michael is normally understood biblically to be the the prince you know, the prince of the angels and the chief angel of heaven. And so he's maybe just another name for

(38:11) Michael. Um what I would say is I think a normal Christian um theology, it's not the um it's not the not an angel who is the voice of God who is the intermediary when when we're the intermediary between the divine source and a prophet, you know, as it's understood theologically.

(38:31) So talking in the burning bush is not Metatron talking, it's uh it's Christ. Is I think in other words, the God's glory, God's logos. That's, you know, God's word is what's actually um the intermediary in revelation in normal Christian theology, but essentially um

(38:48) this is one of the places where um where we're not seeing the Christ in this movie. We're not seeing Christ in this movie. However, the idea that God needs an intermediary Yeah. to speak on behalf of God to humans, that is biblical. Yeah, yeah. Cuz you we do have

(39:08) this this idea that in in Exodus that the people are afraid Yeah. >> that God's going to speak and they're going to hear that and then everyone's going to die because you're not supposed to. Right. Yeah, and even by the fact that Moses has seen God or whatever makes Moses countenance change

(39:24) to the extent that, you know, he has to be veiled or something is happening where where people aren't looking at Moses directly anymore because it was too much for them to see. And so so that kind of thing is biblical. Um I'm just talking about the I'm not sure where he got Metatron from.

(39:41) In other words, where it's it's in the it's >> It's a cool name. >> Yeah. I don't know what it is. Certainly in the in a bunch of the traditions. So, um Metatron is telling uh Bethany that God needs her to do something. God has a little crusade to take her on, right?

(39:58) Uh yeah, apparently Yeah, that and this is this becomes like one of the main premises of of the movie. Now, we're really getting beginning to get the sense of what what what's going to happen at the same time that these two angels are trying to go to this church. Right.

(40:17) There's going to be a counter plot. >> this there's a counter plot. Yeah. Uh to stop them and she is the chosen one. She is the one who has to stop them. Yes. And so he takes her to a um place to get tequila, you know, down the street from where she lives

(40:37) uh in order to talk about it and explain kind of the ins and outs of angels. He's explaining that essentially these two uh these two angels have been a problem this whole time. That the angel of death used to always get drunk and go on benders and that's the reason why God

(40:51) made a rule that angels aren't allowed to drink anymore. So, that's why he had to keep spitting the tequila about back out. >> sound like it's a lot of fun to be an angel >> No. in this in this universe, yeah. But I think that's uh it it's perhaps what what we're

(41:08) getting here is like this idea that if you are a Christian, you're not allowed to do anything fun. I think like what we're talking about is not so much about angels, but about this perception that the church is there to police what we do. And so if you are

(41:24) part of the church, if you're a believer, if you go to church, then you're not supposed to do any fun things like, you know, like sex or drinking or you know, just having fun in general. I think it's this is the kind of idea that is communicating here with the

(41:39) silliness. Yeah. Although you could definitely swear based on all the actions of the different angels, right? I don't [laughter] know. This is a a sweary movie, so which is fine. Um and so yeah, so Alan Rickman is explaining also um I guess what he now is explaining this idea of what um

(41:58) the the plenary indulgence is and what the problem would be, right? So, it doesn't >> this this is the first time that we would learn about what this whole thing means. Right. And so, you know, when I first when I had first heard that uh that this is all hinging on a plenary

(42:14) indulgence, I thought it might that the movie I didn't know Kevin Smith's background. It's only later when I saw the movie and and had um known known Kevin Smith was a back was if you just had the thumbnail that it's a this is about a kind of a critique of

(42:27) plenary indulgences as a backdoor that's going to destroy the universe, you might think that this is a kind of a Protestant complaint because Protestants were that's one of the things that Protestants complained about Catholics about, right? Right. >> might as a thumbnail as a as a a

(42:41) Protestant who doesn't know too much about Catholics think that this is a major problem with the Catholic Church is that they're always giving away plenary indulgences, you know. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> So, anyway, the idea of a um a plenary indulgence is um that uh

(42:59) Let's not even try to but this is a com- complaint that Martin Luther had about what a development in the medieval church where um a person uh is able to be given, let's say, an indulgence. If you make a jubilee pilgrimage to Rome, then you will get a certificate that you went

(43:17) there and that that will guarantee that um some of the amount of time that you're spending in purgatory after death will be alleviated as you are repenting for your sins in the process of purgation, right? And so that's what a plenary indulgence is. But it's Yeah, and

(43:34) in a sense in the in the movie, of course, like the all these all these terms are interpreted in in a very peculiar way. But now yes, to your point about whether um the movie is anti-Catholic or not, it definitely is not. If anything, it's anti-Protestant because it's making fun

(43:58) of this concern that Protestants had or have about indulgences. >> Right, right. >> So, look at look at this whole thing that the Protestants are concerned about. Oh, they're making such a big deal about this silliness. So, if anything, it's a it it's um Oh. it's anti the Protestant

(44:20) position and it's in the same way at some point in the movie we we talk about transubstantiation in a super silly way, which is another Protestant concern. Well, exactly. That's the whole thing. I mean, I don't know if it's I think it's I don't know. In some ways it's

(44:36) criticizing it's criticizing the Catholic Church for being too rule-bound. So, in other words, one of the reasons why um the person who's thought of this whole thing is Azrael. It's not it's not the two angels. As- it's actually Azrael's plot. And and so the problem with it is that

(44:49) he's saying that the church has become way too rules-focused and that that's actually caused a uh a weakness in the whole divine plan that they're going to try to exploit. Essentially, the so the weakness is the idea is it's portrayed that a plenary indulgence actually is a

(45:05) get-out-of-jail-free card entirely. In this it's is not actually the case. >> Right. >> So, in other words, that you have to actually still repent, approach in repentantly. You can't go on a killing spree and then walk through a magic door and suddenly boom, it's yeah.

(45:18) >> that's what they're representing indulgences. It's just a magic just gate and all of a sudden your all your sins, all your responsibilities are washed away and you're back on the good side of God just by going through this magical arch. And since God said they will never

(45:35) be let back into heaven and that if they suddenly are let back into heaven, it would create a a dist- uh a disruption in the universe because God's infallibility will have been ruined. Yeah, and this is when we we begin to understand what the whole problem with

(45:54) Loki and Bartleby was. Mhm. Like it and at some point Bartleby says, "Well, you know, back when God used to be a wrathful God." So, they're talking about a first of all, yes, they're talking about a God that changes. Right. >> A God that changes his or her mind and Bartleby is trying

(46:15) to convince Loki that yes, there was a time when your job was to go and just destroy people who were sinners like, you know, then Sodom and Gomorrah like and when the Noah's flood that only a handful were able to survive. Yes, that's that was the wrathful God. But

(46:38) God is not like that anymore. So, you can't do that. So, turns out that Bartleby at some point like a thousand years ago or something was able to persuade Loki to stop doing his job and I think that's when the whole thing uh just of disobedience of angels of these two

(46:57) angels uh set this whole >> Right. Right. The disobedience of the angels not doing what God wanted them to do whether or not there was any moral uh implications about it, but it was their job. That's what God wanted them to do. They didn't do it. So, once angels fall in traditional

(47:22) understanding of angels that's it. There's no going back. There's no salvation for angels. And so and this is what that's why if they are able to go through this arch at this church in New Jersey, all of the sudden this whole impossibility becomes true. A fallen

(47:42) angel will be saved. Yeah. And that creates a contradiction because God already condemned, already judged these two angels to like this eternal state of uh fallenness. Now, they're going to be back to heaven. And so it means that God made a mistake or that God was wrong or that

(48:07) God judged them as forever as as sinful and now God will accept them back to heaven. >> Or has to because it's the >> Or has to. So, that creates a like a logical Right. fallacy contradiction in what God is. Right. And this has metaphysical implications apparently.

(48:29) This logical contradiction also will in the in the understanding of this movie will unleash uncreation. >> make it'll it'll destroy the universe. >> So, if God is a God who brings order over chaos, which is what Genesis says, then this contradiction will actually undo creation Right. because

(48:54) this is just cannot happen. It's it's just like God is not cannot contradict God. And so this is what the whole thing of the movie is about. It's about like this existential univer- universal problem. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, exactly. So, it's going to be So, it's set up. It's the angels are are

(49:15) not these two The two angels aren't too bright because this is not the first time that an indulgence has been opening. These guys have been on earth for thousands of years. Like I was mentioning like Innocent the III said anybody goes to Rome in the year 1300 or

(49:27) whatever, you all get a plenary indulgence. >> [laughter] >> So, in other words, there's easier ways to do this in the past. They could have done that, but yeah. No, they waited until you know, there was New Jersey. Micah has reminded us that we have been getting comments. I had forgotten we'd

(49:41) we'd missed that tab, but I opened it up. And so, um I really don't know. Thank you for your support. I really don't know says, "I love this movie." >> "I can't believe you guys are watching this. Cheers. Thank you much so much for all you do. The videos are always

(49:53) amazing. I'm glad you like like it." >> this movie? >> Yeah, it's fun. Everyone was so afraid. Oh, no, you're going to hate it. No, it's fun. So, uh Nathaniel uh uh Whiting says, uh "The superficiality of the discussion with the nun." That's the theme of the whole movie. Yeah, so I

(50:10) agree with you. >> Yeah. So, it's a differentiating religious people who believe as a performative act from people who don't. So, um so yeah, exactly. So, this is um and this is like like Leandro, I think I agree with you. And Leandro was also saying that you know, there was that that discussion

(50:25) continues um throughout as the people almost everything that happens in this movie, they're all traveling. But what will happen is that you know, a little bit of action happens and then they're all sitting around together and having a talk. >> And and this is kind of based on I think

(50:39) um Kevin Smith's background. All Clerks is is people a couple different people talking throughout a very inexpensive movie. And even here, even though this is sort of an action movie, almost everything that's action happens kind of off camera. And then you I mean, there's

(50:52) a couple places where they have an actual fight, but it's and I'm I'm not a huge um connoisseur of how uh choreography works for fighting anyway, but I think it's more again inexpensive and not professional how it's being done. But generally, they don't even hardly bother with much of

(51:09) that. And so instead, you just have a new set piece where different people are talking and this kind of conversation continues. And I was sort of as I was [clears throat] assembling the frame caps, I was remembering, "Wow, there it's it this really is a all dialogue

(51:19) kind of movie." You know, as the different people get together and then they have these kind of ongoing discussions about um like you say, the different um different ways of understanding, you know, this kind of meaning what how the how is this universe working? How much

(51:36) of it is about the um uh the dogmatic superstructure that they've learned in church and how much is is meaningful. And Darth Aramis uh writes, you know, "The theme of the movie is in the name. Dogmatic thinking threatens the world and all of existence." So, the

(51:50) fact that the um the fact that there is this group of people that have been given like uh rules. They even quote the um So, the Pope is the successor of St. Peter and they quote um the passage in Matthew where uh the keys are given to Peter to you know, loose in

(52:10) heaven and bind in heaven. And that that's allowing uh uh by since the Pope granted this cardinal uh Catholic Catholicism wild cardinal, you know, an ability to grant the uh plenary indulgences, that kind of dogmatic thinking, that rules-based thing is what is threatening the

(52:28) existence of the universe. Um So, Rain Weber asked, "Was this movie um uh made after The Da Vinci Code?" And the answer seems to be that no, the um so Da Vinci Code comes out later. Yeah, both the book and the movie. >> actually will talk about that because the the same argument, the same theme of

(52:49) The Da Vinci Code comes up a little bit later. So, >> It's the same theme. >> Yeah, so very good. Okay. So, let's continue. Oh, so we So, Bethany wakes up from this uh vision that she's been having. It turns out that it was just a dream or was it just a dream?

(53:09) >> a dream or not because she's got maracas. That I really hate that thing about movies when it's all about, "Oh, no, but here's the evidence." Yeah. Well, I think though that again, this is a satire, right? So, I think that in it but it's also never clear with Kevin

(53:26) Smith. I think he's Is he making an incredibly formulaic movie, you know, and and all these things happen just because it's a formula or is he making fun of the fact that and that every time anybody has a vision and you're like, "Oh, was it just a vision?" But then

(53:38) they see next to them something that indicates, "Oh, I Wait, the maracas indicate that I was in the tequila bar." >> [laughter] >> I don't know. So, anyway. Uh so then Bethany uh with her kind of potentially on a new quest and is going to set off on it, but then she uh is

(53:56) immediately interrupted in this quest by our three uh street hockey enthusiasts who attack her and try to uh beat her. She's trying to get her um car keys out of the the car and then suddenly falling from the sky are two heroes from the previous all of the previous uh Kevin Smith movies, Jay and

(54:16) Silent Bob. So, I'm Bob is Kevin Smith played plays plays him, so himself in his movies. Uh and they start to then interact uh with Bethany. She of course thanks them for saving her life, but um they immediately use that as an opportunity to start hitting on her.

(54:38) Uh and so um that's what I Did you have anything else about that this character? So, No, no, you you know them better than I do. These are, you know, you uh these were fun side characters from the original Clerks movie. So, the original Clerks movie, the main characters are um

(54:55) Randal and Dante. And so, they're the main people that are the managers of the the clerks in the store, but Jay and Silent Bob are the drug dealers who are doing the drug deals outside. And so, they're also mall rats and involved in Chasing Amy as I recall. I

(55:13) haven't only seen that the one time, so I don't remember it as well. But anyway, so now they're they enter into this movie. Um uh Alan Rickman, the Metatron angel, has said that uh uh Bethany will be aided by the two prophets. >> And as they are um as she has brushed them off finally and

(55:32) they are leaving, they mention something about prophets and she starts to think, "Well, maybe wait a second. These are the two prophets?" And so, um and so she's contemplating that. Meanwhile, we cut to our uh favorite fallen angels. And in keeping with Matt Damon's um desire to

(55:51) go on a killing spree, he's gone to a gun store and bought a bought a big gun. Uh we cut back to uh Bethany and Jay and Silent Bob who have come to a diner. >> She actually accepted the invitation to go have dinner with them. >> Right. Crazy. And so, they think that this is a date

(56:10) and they're going to she's going to be their girlfriend or whatever. She is not interested in that. She has a quest that she's trying to tell them about. They don't know anything about it. They don't know where to lead her or anything about it, but she had been told

(56:24) by Metatron that she needs to go to New Jersey and it turns out they're from New Jersey. >> New Jersey. Um but she is not going to have sex with them. So, um actually at some point or other, Jay asked, "Well, what if what if it was the very end of the world and Armageddon and and

(56:39) you know, and there was no chance and we're going to die and there was just us and and things like that?" And she said, "Okay, well, then maybe so." Yeah. >> maybe. Yeah. >> So, >> [laughter] >> so anyway, uh she has a car. She lets them drive. Uh Jay does not know how to drive, so he

(56:53) ruins uh her car. Meanwhile, the angels are on a bus. On a bus. Making their way. So, like I said, there's a lot of um pilgrimage or or >> to the bathroom door. I mean, who does that in the movie? >> [laughter] >> I guess they're angels, so they don't have a sense of smell.

(57:11) And so, this is where they're having that conversation uh that you were talking about about um Matt Damon knowing that um God is a real smighty God and he likes to um you know, he likes to punish sinners. And so, he will be very happy with Matt Damon if Matt as the angel of death Loki, right?

(57:29) >> Yeah, with Loki. >> [clears throat] >> So, Loki, he'll be very happy with Loki if Loki resumes his function essentially and starts going around offing sinners. >> it's it becomes clear, very clear at this point that Loki is like this very simple-minded character. And this is

(57:45) like >> anything, is the dogmatic angel. It's like, "No, these are the rules. This is what we have to do. Sinner, okay, sinners have to pay for what they for their sins." Whereas Bartleby is more philosophical. He starts questioning the well, but is that right? >> And does God want you to do I mean, is

(58:08) God Why do you think God wants you to do that? >> is part of the same conversation that started with the Loki and the nun. But like the whole conversation, just you have to imagine that you're at a table having beers or whatever and people are just talking about it. And not necessarily

(58:26) uh their training theology, but this all these ideas that people are having based on what religion was for you, what you had learned most likely as a kid. >> Yeah. Yeah, and Bartleby makes the point, "Well, you know, ever since you quit being the angel of death, God didn't

(58:44) appoint another angel of death." So, in other words, there's not So, that stopped. And it's not only what you had learned as a kid. >> Yeah. Cuz this is like this is late '90s, right? So, this is the the time when like the internet is not what it is today. It's not that there there was

(58:59) easy access to everything, but I think people are beginning to just learn that yeah, you can access information that is out there and you can learn more than just having to count on your local library. Yeah. I had a good local library. I had gone there and read the books of Enoch, so I

(59:19) knew who Metatron was. >> Not every local [laughter] library had the book of of Enoch. Like mine didn't have that. So, um so there are a couple on the on the bus and he's married. He's he's with he's making out with a girl who's not his wife. So that makes Matt Damon like

(59:39) okay, well, I'm I'm I'm going to you know, punish him for adultery. That's one of the one of the big ones as far as Matt Damon's concerned as his memory from being an old testament angel. Bartleby as a watcher knows already knows what everybody's has all sins. So

(59:55) he knows that this guy's got plenty of sins under under his belt and so uh like Loki. I just keep on I just calling him Matt Damon. I don't know. Matt Damon you know, kills [laughter] him. I guess I think of Loki is the the guy from what's his name from all the Marvel movies.

(1:00:16) From the TV show Loki. Anyway, the Marvel movies. Okay. So anyway, that stops the bus. So that is actually this killing spree is uh self-defeating for these angels as they're trying to make their way to New Jersey. And so then you were saying when they get off the bus Yeah, he's singing

(1:00:36) Staying Alive. Staying Alive. But this is once again, here is still all Loki. He is still thinking this is what I have to do and Matt Damon is the one that that is questioning these things. That's the other one. No, Bartleby is the one that's questioning. You put Matt Damon in my brain.

(1:00:54) Bartleby. But it's Ben Affleck. You can say that. >> [laughter] >> Ben Affleck. Let's Okay, let's go on. So so the Jay and Silent Bob have have destroyed Bethany's car and she's decided that she was wrong to even try this pilgrimage. She doesn't think they're prophets anymore maybe and

(1:01:11) and so she's going to quit the her quest. But they as happens multiple times you know, in the movie it had begun with Jay and Silent Bob falling out of the sky. Jay will say it such and such if if something falls out of the sky or something like that and then it'll happen, right? And so

(1:01:31) essentially Chris Rock falls out of the sky naked and so introduces himself as the 13th apostle Rufus and so didn't make it into the Bible because of bad bad PR. He had a bad relationship with the evangelist and so he got edited out. But he's the the 13th apostle Rufus and

(1:01:55) he's dead. But he's in heaven and so I guess they don't have any clothes there and they >> [laughter] >> everybody else has been able to make it without with clothes. Anyway. So he so he makes it and he is now going to be part of the team as somebody who hung out with JC

(1:02:13) beginning back at the wedding of Cana. The little skater boys are also here, but they don't want to engage now that the prophets actually have apostle on their side. They go back simply to they become spies essentially. They report back to Azrael. Azrael finds out about

(1:02:30) this and decides he's got to he's got to call in bigger reinforcements. So he's going to get what's called the Golgothan to attack them now. So and here they are having lunch where what's it called Moobys? Moobys. Moobys. And so they all make it to they walk

(1:02:52) forward until they get to the Moobys fast food restaurant and so the Mooby character you can kind of see it in the background is a calf a golden calf and this is a corporation that is both Disney and McDonald's. And so you can tell definitely was will see that the Moobys as simple as it

(1:03:14) comes. Yeah, exactly. McDonald's merged with with Disney. And so of course we remember that the the Disney is owns the film company, but they also refused to distribute it and so they might they might have refused to distribute it because >> [laughter] >> the board of the Moobys corporation is

(1:03:31) shown to be like extraordinarily evil people who are everything from sex traffickers to all kinds of different when when Bartleby What about the disclaimer? Yeah, yeah. That's true. Anyway. >> [laughter] >> So we'll see. What was this What do you remember this conversation they're having right

(1:03:50) Oh yeah, yeah. I remember. This the same conversation continues and here's all these speculative ideas that that people Right. I remember having conversations like this. No, Jesus was actually not blonde like you know, in all these pictures, but Jesus was Well, in this

(1:04:08) case Jesus was black and and the idea that they were not just 12 apostles, but there were more apostles. So all these ideas that people were talking about speculating about definitely in the 90s without having a lot of access to information to corroborate unless you were a scholar

(1:04:27) all these claims that you were overhearing here and there. And so this is one of these things that I remember people talking about. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's what So that's what's happening. And so and of course we've done we've done lectures. There were more

(1:04:42) than 12 apostles. And and certainly And addressing the issue of the ethnicity of Jesus. We do that as well, right? And so and and by the way though this idea there's also while while it's not a historical idea historically his an idea with historicity there is a a large popular

(1:05:02) idea of you know, of a black Jesus and that kind of a thing. So this is not Chris Rock is not saying something that's out out of that kind of popular thinking, but he fails to convince anybody >> [laughter] >> at the table. That's it's he doesn't have any other black characters I guess.

(1:05:18) So they don't they're all there's not a lot of sympathy with that idea. So Jay and Silent Bob have made their way into a strip joint. They find him there and they meanwhile have found another one of our protagonist characters as we'll see. But as they are meeting that we go to the

(1:05:34) Mooby headquarters as we were talking about and like I say this is why it's not just McDonald's. It's also Disney because the Mooby guy here you can see it's sort of like a he's a cow who but he's wearing Mickey Mouse's pants, right? And so so there's a a clear reference.

(1:05:50) Right. This is like we're merging Mickey Mouse with the golden calf Exodus. So it's a very obvious over the top references that you can't miss unless you don't know the story of Exodus. Right. And so in other words this is the this is the end all one of the end all be all

(1:06:10) stories of idolatry I guess from the Bible and so that's what the angel of death has in mind that these corporate people have created a new idol that they are worshipping which literally is a golden calf. And so they come to this board meeting. Bartleby who is one of the watchers who

(1:06:28) therefore knows all of the all of the sins goes around the table of all of the different Michael Eisner or whoever all the the different Disney board executives are and says all the things that they are they're all bad except for the the one woman on the board who who says is an innocent. And

(1:06:48) so having listed off all their sins then it's time for Loki to do his part and his job. And so he butchers everybody off camera. But anyway, blood gets splattered over the over the door to handles as outside the doors Ben Affleck is just listening. And still I mean now I guess Ben Ben

(1:07:13) Affleck that is Bartleby is still not participating in in the killing in the punishment. It's only Loki at this point who thinks that's what he's supposed to do. To get back in God's good side. Yeah. Even if they're going to get these indulgences. He still thinks that this

(1:07:36) is how he gets through on God's good side. He still wants to be redeemed, pardoned. Well, they definitely have two different perspectives, right? Cuz like you're saying Bartleby is the more philosophical one. He understands he's the more dogmatic thinker I guess let's

(1:07:52) say because he he has a loophole that's a rule that he knows he can get through. Whereas [clears throat] whereas Loki is still wanting to kind of reform and do his function and he thinks that this is what God wants him to do in a twisted way. Yeah, they're they're both dogmatic in

(1:08:10) different ways. Yeah, different ways dogmatic. Yeah. All right. So it turns out that the stripper is a woman named Serendipity or actually a muse named Serendipity. She shows us that she's not a woman. She's also doesn't have genital genitals. >> [laughter] >> Anyway, right? And so

(1:08:28) this is a thing in the movie. They want to make sure that that's the way it works. And >> [snorts] >> uh it's interesting because you know, anyway, well, Serendipity is not the name of any one of the the muses and obviously there's no muses in in biblical mythology. But you know, so this is what

(1:08:49) that part of that interaction between the two you know, between the two mythologies and things like that is he's bringing both of those kind of things together in this kind of an eclectic eclectic movie in terms of its how it's creating its mythology which is like the Sandman

(1:09:04) again. Yeah. And and actually the Sandman in one of the quests that they have when when Dream who's the the protagonist of the Sandman Lord Morpheus when he is on a quest he goes and meets the goddess Ishtar who has I I become a stripper in New Jersey. Yeah, it's similar very similar to this

(1:09:28) scene here. I mean not but the idea, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, and so anyway and so now we've added we get a new character. And so we have another one of these conversations as she's telling kind of like her part about you know like is the this conversation about you

(1:09:46) know what's the meaning of life and those kind of things as we were talking about the universe continues with now a new character to add. >> about religion and big questions continues at this table and you know one of the things that Serendipity says is that your brains have to wake up. Right?

(1:10:04) So it's like not it's so pulling people out of the dogma mindset into independent thinking. Yeah. And presenting God, religion, spirituality as such not as dogma but things that you have to think about. >> Yeah. Whereas Bethany is this kind of person that yeah for her

(1:10:31) religion is all about this formulas and remember she's reciting the creed and beliefs and things like that and Serendipity here saying no that's that has nothing to do with that. You just have to ask your own questions pretty much. This is when that theme is introduced in the movie by this

(1:10:50) character that has this peculiar name Right. that and I think it's it's like the opposite of having like someone having Providence. Like this is like the idea of okay is this a coincidence that we're going through life and meeting all these characters and all these things are happening to us or

(1:11:11) has this been somewhat decided prearranged by God and I suppose that because we have this character we're trying to say everything is just a big coincidence and life is not just predetermined by God. One of the main argument discussions that is happening not at this table but especially with

(1:11:35) the angels is the question of free will. Right. Yeah, there's going to be more free will discussions. There's free will discussion going on a lot but it's especially with the angels. But we do have these big conversations either at this table or Yeah. at other tables and

(1:11:50) at this point we have talked about you know free will a little bit a little bit about theodicy and eventually we'll we'll get into even deeper theological conversations. Well, and then one of the things that happens at this conversation is that Serendipity refers to God as a she.

(1:12:09) Right. >> that's something that Bethany immediately you know latches onto and likes and so and so the idea of it is that um that as a muse you know in other words God is always using he pronouns in the biblical texts themselves but but the muse says well that's how the that's how the individual

(1:12:30) writer when they were you know when they experienced revelation or whatever they have their inherent human bias and they they filled it in that way but as I was inspiring the story I was using she her pronouns and they changed it and then she says that the whole Bible has a has

(1:12:47) a gender bias which you know there's a lot of gender bias in it but although there's the Bible also has more strong female characters in it than a lot of ancient texts so it could be a lot worse is all I'm saying. I'm not going to dispute her but it's also in character for her to

(1:13:02) have making this case this way. It's the same kind of thing that it it is also reflective of what you're saying this ongoing conversation about like the meaning of life that you have at college late at night when you're all drinking like this or you know in in the

(1:13:16) case of Jay and Silent Bob and you know smoking pot you know [laughter] and so and as the conversation continues and unlike Rufus you know so when Rufus has tried to convince everybody that Jesus was black and that did not make Bethany Bethany didn't buy into that one but she definitely now

(1:13:34) for the rest of the movie is using God with she her pronouns >> Right. and and no one else does that until the very very end so even though the even though the authoritative angels that she looks to like Metatron he continues to use he him pronouns for God but it definitely is something that

(1:13:51) immediately changes Bethany's theology. Okay, then suddenly they smell something. >> [laughter] >> This is the Golgothan which is a excrement demon. So this is they have a fight with this creature. And so this is like a little bit of humor and slapstick and adventure

(1:14:16) and ultimately Silent Bob sprays it with a odor destroyer and that allows them to defeat that that monster. I don't know that's we don't necessarily that doesn't have a theological implication [laughter] I suppose, right? Bathroom rest restrooms were at bars in the 90s I guess.

(1:14:39) >> Yeah. All right, so the angels are been stymied so far in their there's no more buses they've been killing people on the buses and so now they're going to have to eventually while they while they're there they run into Azrael. Azrael um explains that actually God everybody knows what they're doing

(1:15:02) that they should be keeping a lower profile they shouldn't be doing all of this killing spree because in fact God has actually called in a bunch of reinforcements to stop them from doing this plenary indulgence thing including the last scion. And I think we have

(1:15:18) don't know if we've been hearing about >> No, I think this is when when we first hear about that. >> Um So um the last scion the idea of this is so this is where you know Pim somebody had already just asked about um Where did we have this? I lost print me. Um Yeah, anyway people had talked about

(1:15:48) okay what what about people had asked about the the relationship with the DaVinci code. And so and so the DaVinci code is based on a pretty really problematic and certainly not a text with no historical value the Priory of Scion as opposed to Zion and and this is a

(1:16:06) thing that is gives the idea that the Merovingian line is a descendant of Jesus through Mary Magdalene. And so the idea of the last scion here is that the family of Jesus anyway have produced a bloodline that has come down to Bethany. And so it's I think in this case not

(1:16:25) Jesus's progeny but actually his brothers and sisters whose children and descendants have come down to Bethany but in any event it's a kind of a similar idea. >> But these are ideas that yeah as Rain was asking about the DaVinci code. Yeah, the DaVinci code when it's published in 2003 which is

(1:16:43) four years Yeah. after this movie the book. Yeah. It's not presenting revolutionary ideas or new ideas. These are things that people have been talking about for a long time and they were in the 80s there was this book called the holy blood called holy blood holy

(1:17:02) grail and a series of BBC documentaries where it's the BBC, right? So you watch it thinking oh that this this is TV this is this is the BBC this must be true where they're talking about the connection between Jesus and Mary Magdalene and all these ideas that then get

(1:17:22) just absorbed and elaborated into the DaVinci code. So people were having these conversations definitely in the 90s about the possibility yeah that Mary Magdalene is is important and had children with with Jesus and so on. >> seen it in like a lot of the movies that

(1:17:41) we already watched right the last temptation of Christ and the rest of it comes to love and Tristan and these stories because >> mind as but what was also in the popular mind that was increasing is like well this is a secret. Yeah. >> And they don't want us to know about

(1:17:54) that because if we knew about it then the whole thing the whole church would would collapse and I don't know I guess we would all be happy as a result but >> [laughter] >> but I think you have to understand again the context of the the late 90s when um we had

(1:18:17) we were learning about uh the Dead Sea Scrolls the Nag Hammadi library and there was real scandal about like those discoveries and the publications and scholars and governments and different interests just blocking just putting obstacles to publication of all these discoveries. So

(1:18:39) yeah, there was something that was happening. Now the media of course were like exaggerating what was really happening but of course the idea that what they're hiding something they're afraid that we are going to stop going to church if we learn the truth. Yeah.

(1:18:58) So yeah, I I maybe this is where this I'm I don't know if that's you know it's probably like you say it's it's flowing into the same thing. >> in yeah in the mind of people at the time. And so that now we understand why um anyway that you know Bethany's has this special role. And now

(1:19:14) everybody now she's on now they're on a train they're making their way from New Jersey on a train. She's in a train car talking to Rufus. And again, once again, you know, the conversations continue and uh um I'm trying to think I mean I I don't remember. I mean every one of these

(1:19:34) conversations blend together with me. I the the notes that I took when when on this conversation were uh you know, that she says something like church is boring. She lost her faith when talking to her mother when her mother would just say um God has a plan as a is like the

(1:19:48) simplistic answer to why she's suffering. Um and then she her response to that was what about my plans? What about my plans? You know, um uh and so anyway, there's a there's a sense therefore that when my plans are not, you know, are not being happening, that means

(1:20:08) God's not listening and so on. I I do think it's interesting that, you know, whereas Metatron called her her um quest a crusade, she calls it a pilgrimage. And so it is kind of an interesting becomes a much more spiritual journey as opposed to a a war journey. She's never

(1:20:25) thought of it, I think, as taking up a sword and doing this. She's doing she's on a kind of a spiritual quest. >> Yeah, she's interesting that way. She does that several times that she sees things her own way, which is what what Serendipity wanted her to do. Yeah.

(1:20:39) Yeah. All right. So he she needs some food. He's going to go to sleep. She goes into the dining car. She sees Jay and Silent Bob who have started hanging out with two new friends. Uh >> [laughter] >> and it's our two uh angels, Loki and Bartleby. And when you first see them,

(1:20:59) you think that that because Azrael has just been warning them, you figure that they they actually have been >> knew. clued in and they've come here. But actually turns out, no, this is another one of these coincidences. So the movie um you know, is Serendipity is not the only

(1:21:15) character. So with the exception of people that fall out of the sky, you know, at particular moment in a particular place, that's not a coincidence. That's that's planned. >> is planned. But if you then just go to the very next rest stop and there's a um a strip bar and that's where you meet

(1:21:28) Serendipity, that's maybe a coincidence. And so and so in this case, it also seems like, you know, this is just a coincidence, I guess, that these guys are here or maybe it was all planned, but that was not it's none of these guys planned it. Uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh

(1:21:41) uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh >> Okay. And so um this they split into two groups as uh Loki and Jay and Silent Bob uh share well, they get get to talk up together or whatever it is, you know, and and they share their

(1:21:59) conversation. And then the more serious conversation happens between um Bartleby and um Bethany. And we learn a lot of things now here that we really go in deep into what Bethany's problem with God is. We had heard a little bit about it in previous scenes and her conversations

(1:22:21) with Metatron especially, but it is here as she starts drinking and and just getting a little bit more un- and uninhibited um that she's letting it all out. >> Yeah. And so I think we had already learned that she uh she can't have she can't get pregnant. She can't have

(1:22:43) children. But this is one of the things we learn in this scene that she's really really uh angry about angry at God about and like how come my plan, as you were saying before, was to have a family and God said, "No, no, no, you can't do that." So why me? Why do I have to

(1:23:02) suffer? Why is there a suffering? Why would God allow me individual me to suffer. So this is what she's presenting and then turns out that actually we're getting also into Bartleby's uh mind and how he feels the same way. He feels that well, in a way God is unjust. Yeah. Which is also what she is

(1:23:28) saying. Now where is justice in this whole system that God is presenting if we are here to suffer and God is allowing that suffering. >> who says he feels that God stopped listening to him. God stopped listening to uh to him uh he says and he he in a way yeah, he's got a

(1:23:50) although he doesn't say this uh in in this conversation, but we were beginning to see a little bit of a middle child um kind of psychology Yeah. >> with him. Like he hasn't gotten his attention from being either the the eldest or the or the youngest. Yeah, so he's neither one of the big

(1:24:12) [clears throat] important angels, but he's also not you know, the baby in the family, which is humans. And so as a result, he resents the parents, but he especially resents the the little siblings, the humans. >> Yep. And so as their conversation goes on, though, uh Bethany gets more tipsy. She now

(1:24:33) starts to confide this crazy pilgrimage that she's on, which she's she's questioning. She's starting to think it's really silly that this is even happening or it's an absurd thing that she's been asked to do it and things like that. And she's been asked to stop

(1:24:46) these two angels to you know, she's the uh the last scion and and that's a sort of like >> [laughter] >> This is the aha moment. >> is like, "Oh my my goodness." You know, so now he realizes not only from Azrael that um that you know, God isn't going to let him to

(1:25:04) get away, you know, you he thinks he's got this thing, but actually God God is planning to to kill him >> or whatever to to stop him and destroy him and everything like that and that makes him incredibly resentful. And so this is I think the probably the tipping

(1:25:17) point for his character. >> the tipping point for Bartleby because it is here that this angel that up until this point was a very philosophical and the one that was not really into all the killings that Loki was just going around doing and kind of complaining about it. Uh

(1:25:36) this is when like, "Okay, no, now I have to kill these people." >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. Whereas this is also like a an important point for uh I would say biblical uh I don't know if intentional biblical parallel, Okay. >> but definitely when Bethany is just

(1:25:53) laughing about this thing. >> Oh, yeah. Like Oh, right. Yeah. >> How come this this is so silly? I'm telling you this thing because it's so silly. Can you imagine God actually making this happen? And this is like the the role of all these uh matriarchs in the Old Testament. But they're all what?

(1:26:15) Like yeah, Sarah Sarah laughs when she when when got when the when God actually comes and says that you'll be, you know, that that you're you're tells her husband that you'll be the father of many nations and then she laughs. Right. So when you're barren >> Yeah.

(1:26:31) in the Bible, like like uh Sarah, like uh Rebecca, like uh like um Hannah in in in first Samuel, the mother of Samuel, uh they all >> Like Elizabeth. Well, and then later Elizabeth, they all their concern is me. Yeah. I just can't uh have children and but then turns out that that is

(1:26:54) the the mother of Well, you know, of course it's a patriarchal >> Right. The mother of Isaac, the mother of Sarah, the mother of Mary. >> is important. But >> Mother of Jesus and so forth. Yeah. But she's doing the same thing and [clears throat] like Sarah reacts like

(1:27:09) with okay, come on, this is silly. She laughs. Yeah. And so now he's see now he's seeing her laugh. Yeah. So then Rufus wakes up. He sees the angels. He immediately knows who they are. This precipitates a standoff as Bartleby now takes Bethany hostage. Uh this then uh becomes a fight

(1:27:27) scene pretty quick. Uh and in the middle of the fight scene, um Silent Bob has kind of magic fight powers and is able to one by one overpower uh first Loki and then uh Bartleby and throw them off the train. Uh throw them out the door and off the train. And after they've both been

(1:27:53) thrown off the train in a in a reference to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where Indiana Jones threw um the Nazi guy out of the uh the zeppelin, >> [laughter] >> he says, "No tickets." or whatever. And so that happens. Kevin Smith says that, too, uh the person who witnessed him

(1:28:11) throw the two angels off the train. Which I thought that was that was very silly. I mean, yes, the reference sort of explains a lot, makes makes the scene arguably more funny. But uh but also this is the first time that he speaks in the movie. Oh, is it? Yeah. Oh, okay.

(1:28:33) Yeah. And that's the last time. >> Usually it's reserved like in in in like Clerks, he doesn't speak until the very end where he when he then shares kind of wisdom that's sort of I think like the the you know, like the the Zen wisdom of the movie, right? Whereas this is this is

(1:28:48) speaking to to make a reference to the Indiana Jones movie. >> reference [laughter] to a silly point and a silly scene in a silly movie. >> a Jay line probably than anyway, but I guess I don't know how many what He's going to speak again at the end of the movie, but it almost like

(1:29:04) it's kind of silly because he already said something. Okay. >> [laughter] >> So meanwhile, the angels regroup pretty fast. They're they're immune to getting hurt from getting thrown out of trains. and so this is where they have their um um Now now because Bartleby has changed

(1:29:20) um Yeah, this is a different Bartleby. Right. And so now um uh now he is talking about that this thing that you're talking about where he is resentful of humans. Yep. And he's talking about it because humans have been given the gift of free will. Angels don't have free will, and uh and so now

(1:29:39) he's very resentful of of humans in that. And it's a self-contradictory kind of philosophy that he's presenting here cuz he literally just changed. Yeah. This is at the moment that he learned that Bethany was the Bethany that was trying to stop them. This is when he changes, and now he

(1:30:07) wants to to become an ancient of destruction. Right. >> Um But then he's complaining that oh, we're angels. We can't change, but humans can change. Yeah. And we don't have free will, but humans do. Humans have the option to to choose their own destiny. But he is choosing his own destiny.

(1:30:28) [laughter] Yeah, so so this is the difference between uh the actual Catholic doctrine and theology philosophy or whatever this idea that we talked about where angels and the idea of angels and free will actually is very explored. Uh Kevin Smith I'm sure probably doesn't know

(1:30:45) that, but then the idea is angels don't have uh you know, essentially don't have free will anymore. They they effective effectively don't. They have They have free will, but the the fact is that they're already locked in. And so the idea of it as identified by um as it

(1:30:58) like I said for philosophical purposes in the Middle Ages um medieval theologians used the idea of angels as essentially like a thought experiment as they were trying to think about what are the ramifications of free will. What if free what is Do we have free will? That's still an open

(1:31:16) question. And so and so Anselm of Bec, this 11th century uh philosopher, wrote a treatise on the on the on the freedom of choice, on the fall of the devil. Why did the devil fall? And so the idea of it is that um angels have a much more pure intellect, and they don't have all this fog of

(1:31:35) confusion and contradictions. >> Mhm. And so it's not even clearly why they are created this way, but essentially right at the very beginning in this period that is called the war in heaven or something like that, the angels essentially all you know, made their choice good and bad.

(1:31:50) You more or less like the um uh the Krusty the Clown doll that in the in the tree Simpsons horror episode where he could be slip switched to good or evil. You [laughter] know, here's your problem. He was switched to evil. You know, so um but anyway, so they're all you know,

(1:32:07) like they're all switched to all the ones that are switched to good only do good. And so as a result of that um this thing that has happened in the story um could never happen because in other words, once the angels are switched to good, if which they do at the very

(1:32:23) beginning, you know, in all of this, then ever after they will always always choose good. They will always choose the obedient. And so therefore Loki as the angel of death would never stop doing what God wanted and then become a fallen angel midstream. >> Right. In other words, after he's

(1:32:40) already been on the one side and now he's in this intermediate thing, and same thing Bartleby. So in other words, the two of them could The only way you can be a fallen angel in um according to Christian theology itself is right at the very beginning. So Azrael and we'll we'll we'll see Azrael

(1:32:58) what his situation is, but Satan and the other you're you know, all the other demons that are are uh whatever Asmodeus and so forth, that all of those are all count They all That all comes from the beginning. You don't have this late stage um angels changing. But because that

(1:33:14) doesn't exist in the the View Askew universe like you're pointing out, they actually do have free will, and and they are exercising their free will. And so and they're changing, especially Bartleby, right? And here Loki tells him that you sound like Lucifer. Yeah. Yeah, so

(1:33:30) the free will is operational for these two angels anyway, and so as a result um they've each flipped and chosen one of them in the twisted way thinking that he's doing good, and the other one who's decided that he is going to rebel now at this point, right? And at this point also like there's

(1:33:48) other contradiction in Bartleby Bartleby's uh What is this? Uh goals, I would say. Yeah. Because on the one hand he resents God greatly cuz he thinks God is very unjust. But on the other hand he wants to go back to God. Mhm. Yeah. Which again, that's why I said that this

(1:34:12) is like this middle child psychological issues that he has that he really wants what he hates. Right. Or at least what he says he hates. Right. Let's move along. >> [laughter] >> So um they now also are at odds with each other. And so this is introducing a um you know, kind of like a conflict

(1:34:35) where you know, like like like you say in a way they've switched sides. And so now um uh Matt Damon is not sure that he wants to do all of these things and even go through with it all, and and again because Ben Affleck is sounding like Satan, he's becoming more dubious of him

(1:34:49) because uh his switch has gotten switched on to evil. So we then go and have uh you know, like a another one of these conversations this time around a campfire, and they're all there. Um uh I'm trying to think of what happens in this one. >> I don't know, but [laughter] I remember

(1:35:09) the next scene. Yeah, so then she goes off uh storms off into the forest. She falls into a lake, and from the lake then Metatron comes walking on water to uh to talk to her. And then they all are transported >> when he tells her, you know, that this it's it's fine what you're going through

(1:35:31) is understandable uh because it it's a lot for you in the same way that it was a lot for Jesus when he was 12 to understand that he is actually God. No, he doesn't say you are also God, but But he compares her to yeah. Yeah, he compares her to Jesus. Yeah, this is where he says, "Didn't you

(1:35:51) notice that like that um the Bible's missing 18 years of Jesus's life? It didn't go that good. We we had to use it We had to edit that out." Essentially is that idea. So >> Right. And again, it's like the these kinds of things that were in the popular imagination

(1:36:06) >> Yeah. in from ancient times, but definitely in the '90s like oh, yeah, what happened in the Did he go to India? Did he go here, there? Yeah, absolutely. And so um uh then uh Metatron transports them all to a restaurant in the town that they need to go to. A nicer restaurant.

(1:36:25) >> A nicer restaurant in the town that they need to go to. >> [laughter] >> Um I was noticing again here this at this scene that everybody's continuing to use male pronouns except um uh you know, Bethany whose theology has changed. Um uh this conversation continues, so we just

(1:36:45) >> Yeah, this conversation also I think is when the uh Metatron reveals that they have lost. Uh Oh, that we they've lost God. They don't know where God is. And that's why they need her That's why they need Bethany because they also explain that Bethany is the last scion to everybody. So

(1:37:04) apparently this this is like a pretty weird take on incarnation doctrine where like yeah, God becomes takes human form, but then gets disconnected from the rest of the divine realm and all the angels have no way of communicating >> contacting or communicating with God.

(1:37:24) Uh so yes, this is why all these bad things are happening apparently is because God is lost. So we'll come more to that. >> [laughter] >> And yeah, it just makes me think of like this is 1999 and like the like this movie What if God was one of us? The song. Just the the

(1:37:44) song, just a stranger on the bus. The idea like in a pop pop theology at the time of yeah, like this Joan Osborne video where there's all these people. Oh, maybe one of them is God. Having a very anthropomorphic understanding of God. And this is part of an other idea also I think of a very

(1:38:03) anthropomorphic understanding of God is also something that comes from the way God is taught maybe in Sunday school and that kind of a thing or you as you're taught how to picture God. So So they also in this they they seem are reminded again that the whole person

(1:38:21) that's responsible for all this is Cardinal Glick. So they decide to go to Cardinal Glick and try to talk him out of actually opening his thing and and offering the plenary indulgence so that would be just a way to get out of this whole thing. And uh he absolutely is not interested

(1:38:35) in that. So they have a little bit of a of a pep talk or pitch and fight with him, and he absolutely doesn't agree. So I recall. Um and then the angels make their way to New Jersey. Um the guys have all after after their failure with the cardinal, they're all

(1:38:58) hanging out in a bar. >> [laughter] >> So again, continuing their conversation. >> Conversation again. >> part of what the whole movie is. Uh then Azrael shows up in the bar. Uh and um has starts, you know, fighting with everybody kind of back and forth. And including the bartender and then Azrael.

(1:39:16) A holy bartender. Just takes into Yeah, exactly. But he makes the pun a holy bartender by filling him full of holes. And that makes kind of introduces a thing where Azrael with a machine gun and his three little demon skater boys are all holding them hostage. So now our heroes

(1:39:36) have all been captured and are not going to be able to stop the angels from going into the church door and destroying the world. So we're set up to that point. The ceremony is happening. The cardinal has his the one Protestant in the show. >> [laughter] >> You know,

(1:39:57) the mayor he's not holding it against her. And interrupting the whole procedure though are the two angels who um announce that everybody's condemned. Actually, it's now the one that normally would be saying this is is Matt Damon who's the angel of death, but now he's

(1:40:12) not sure that he wants to do any of this. And so now it's they've switched roles and it's Ben Affleck that is um announcing judgment on everybody. Uh again, Loki doesn't want to do it, but he goes forward. Uh a cop starts to stop them because he assumes that they're

(1:40:29) just regular mortals and uh immediately has his neck snapped which causes a immediate panic and everyone flees and uh this chaos has erupted now at the ceremony. Um they're now uh Bartleby wants them to, you know, show off their their true selves as they're involved in this whole thing. Uh and

(1:40:49) Loki is not sure. So meanwhile, that back in the hostage situation um you know, they're all sort of being held and they're watching it on the news. So they're realizing that the world's about to end and there's nothing that they can do about it. Uh and then we get more of this

(1:41:04) conversation now from Azrael's perspective. Azrael explains that or it is explained anyway that Azrael in this whole period when this flipping of switches that I was talking about happened when when there's immediate moment in the pre-existence where or whatever you want to call it at the

(1:41:23) beginning of creation when the angels are um are fighting. Um there were all the loyal ones and there were all of the the ones that went with Satan. And Azrael is is um was a neutral cuz he had been a muse. But again, this is doesn't have any uh kind of foundation in any ancient

(1:41:42) books. No. No, this is not because >> [clears throat] >> because in in Azrael in as one of the four archangels in Islam is a good angel. So the angel of death is good. In you know, the words you're [clears throat] you're that was the same thing like Loki's good, right?

(1:41:58) Or supposed to be good even though he's, you know, killing everybody. So he's fallen at this point. Anyway, in the in in in the cardinal position of him being an archangel, he shouldn't be a demon. So it is a confusing thing. But in terms of this idea of neutral players in the war

(1:42:13) in heaven, that's actually in the that's there's a that's another speculative thing that happened in Mormon doctrine. And uh and so and it's it ends up having a very bad uh certainly not in our doctrine in Community of Christ, but in Mormon in Mormon speculative doctrine from the

(1:42:28) 1840s and and it's the foundation for the Mormon explanation of the curse of Cain and and various racist stuff. So Anyway, so neutral players in the in the in the war in heaven. So anyway, the same same philosophical idea is explored here for um for Azrael. So uh they, you know,

(1:42:47) continue to talk and listen and ultimately um decide to have a fight. And so um essentially um they convince Silent Bob to use the cardinal's uh to, you know, he's going to give him a free free free whack with the the a golf club. >> club. But because it's the cardinal's

(1:43:09) golf club it turns out the cardinal has blessed it and again because the whole point here is that all of the dogmatic rules of the church are actually operative. That's the whole reason why the universe is in trouble. The uh club actually is going to be a dangerous weapon. They also tell

(1:43:24) Bethany to bless the sink water. She does so and so therefore when they put the three little demon boys in the the sink, they they are destroyed because of they've now impacted holy water. >> that's when they say the angels can transubstantiate. Demons can't transubstantiate.

(1:43:41) >> can't transubstantiate. And it's like, what does that have to do with anything here? It doesn't have anything to do with anything here. Well, so so so they're using this idea. So transubstantiation is something that's completely different, but Kevin Smith uses the word transubstantiate

(1:43:57) in order to say that angels can become humans. Right. And but demons can't. And so there is no hope for Azrael. He can't he can't become a human and go through and get a plenary indulgence. It's the two angels that can go do that uh because he's a demon. And so but the

(1:44:14) idea of it is that um if the angels cut off their wings, they will transubstantiate and become humans. Which is by the way what happens in in the Sandman. So this is another reason why I think that when, you know, Satan cuts off his wings and and retires or whatever. And

(1:44:29) so I sort of feel like that's where that he got that idea from. But anyway, so that's what that's what ends up happening here. And so as a result, they're able to defeat all of the demons. Uh and then it turns out that you know, Silent Bob is an is a uh agent of God or whatever. No, it's

(1:44:44) the it's the baseball or I'm sorry, the golf club. >> club. And so they explain how the demons had to follow all these same dogmatic rules because that's what the whole um part of the whole like we were talking about the theme of the movie. So our crew finally are able to make it to the

(1:45:00) uh the scene of the massacre at the church. Um they're just seeing all of the dead people including the cardinal who's head has been knocked off or blown up. And uh everyone's dead all around except for uh Loki who's had his wings cut off. And he's looking up where um where Bartleby

(1:45:20) is flying around picking people up and dropping them to the ground. Um which is you know, causing everybody to how are we going to stop these guys, right? You know. And so they're not sure if the angels have actually been through the gate or not. And so the danger is if

(1:45:36) they've actually walked through the door and not Yeah, cuz they can't actually kill them. And so it's it's unclear, right? So so they don't they did they can't So if Matt Damon's been in and out, then then he could potentially be you could kill him and that would be

(1:45:49) what you want to do. But we don't know yet what happens. And so Bartleby comes down and he realizes that he's, you know, in the driver's seat between all these guys aren't going to be able to do anything to him. >> It has become Catholicism ow. Yeah, so Catholicism wow is now Catholicism ow.

(1:46:04) >> [laughter] >> Frustration comes out of these promises of renewal of of churches often. So uh Bartleby threatens uh Bethany. But fairly quickly they all start fighting back and forth. Or I guess I guess he has his last I'm sorry encounter here with his companion. It turns out that um

(1:46:28) Loki has transubstantiated and is fully human and that means that he has a conscious now which is why he doesn't want to do any of these things that Bartleby wants to do. And but it also means that he's become fully mortal. And so uh Bartleby stabs him and that's the end of him. And so he

(1:46:45) had not gone through the gate yet. So this is not causing a cosmic problem. But now the only one who's going to go through is Bartleby. Uh Loki's died as a regular mortal. So now because it's the very end of the world, Jay is convinced that the deal that they can uh have sex at the end of

(1:47:04) the world, you know, is operative now. But uh in at while the fight's going on. But what ends up actually happening is he reminds he says that the um that the homeless guy is in the >> guy that they were talking about at church when she was introduced actually

(1:47:20) is in a hospital right there. And and we had also we forgot to fell to mention that Metatron um mentioned that that skeeball is one of the things that God liked to do when God was in a mortal body. And that gives Bethany the trigger that she realizes that God is in that

(1:47:34) body. And if we get her out of that body or get Yeah, her is what Bethany would say. Out of that body, then the whole thing will be able to be uh resolved. And so she's very happy and actually kisses Jay. And uh so we're still having our showdown, but um essentially what ends up happening is

(1:47:51) Jay uh shoots at Bartleby, but only destroys his wings which allows him to transubstantiate. So he's actually not helping at all. Meanwhile, Silent Bob and uh and Bethany are going for the hospital while um uh Bartleby is you know, just convinced that his plan is, you know, winning

(1:48:10) winning winning. He can't stop winning here. Um but Bethany has gotten and found the homeless guy. >> Where is God? God is at the in the hospital. In the hospital. >> a hospital. God's in the homeless and everything like that. God has presence there. And so she pulls the plug.

(1:48:27) Oops, that's not supposed to do that. Yeah, well. >> The the priest told her. Yeah, not supposed to. But anyway, she does not what the priest had wants. Instead now God then is freed. As God is being freed, that causes a a reaction where where um Bethany's thrown and falls on something

(1:48:44) and is stabbed through and and dies. Uh but meanwhile, God is released and instantly is able to transport. So as >> Yeah, exactly. So uh as soon as Bartleby is actually able to open the doors and get there he unfortunately finds out that God is there. And we find out that God is Alanis

(1:49:07) Morissette. >> God is Canadian. [laughter] I knew it. And so Alanis Morissette plays this and then she she doesn't speak. >> Isn't it ironic? >> It's ironic? Is that what that Is that how it works? Don't you think? Well, I mean the part of it is that the ironic song is not actually talking about irony

(1:49:28) as we know, but it's actually talking about um unfortunate things that happen that you complain about and randomness. So it actually is related to serendipity in this in this and the and and the and why am I suffering kind of things. I think it's a perfect choice not just because

(1:49:45) she's Canadian, but because of that song that is about frustration and how random things happen and rain on your wedding day and things like that. Yeah, it's very very Gen X, very '90s. It's [laughter] very appropriate for this movie, so. And so uh in the presence of God even

(1:50:03) Jay bows. Uh ultimately uh Bartleby is so moved by being in God's presence that he says he's sorry. Um and God embraces Bartleby. But then um everybody has to close their ears who's mortal because God can't be as we talked about before, you cannot hear God's voice

(1:50:27) in uh and live or be in God's presence and live. And so that's shown this way by having uh you know, Bartleby who's now become fully mortal, he's trans- >> Right. >> substantiated in in the If I were her as a singer, I would have issues with this. Oh, finally when you

(1:50:45) like she's like singing there and like oh my god, you don't want to hear this. >> My singing is is causes people's heads to explode. So he's essentially the full um in speaking of Indiana Jones again, so the full uh Raiders of the Lost Ark kind of thing all you know, with heads

(1:50:58) melt in this case blow up. Um and so Alan Rickman is kind of like here is >> [laughter] >> his ears covering his ears like uh uh That was quite quite a noise. And so then um you know, we are able to kind of have the kind of close up as we are now God is now returns.

(1:51:15) >> a new dress. God has a new dress. Uh Jay has says all kinds of things the way you expect this character do. God kind of ends up uh shushing him. >> [laughter] >> Uh and we just sort of start to have him kind of kind of the wrap-up of which the last real um thing is obviously

(1:51:34) everything has caused chaos. God looks at it all and and cleans that all up and makes the street and all the chaos >> fixes everything and she >> Deus ex machina as we say, right? The God God fixes everything at the end. And including including poor Bethany has died, which is obviously

(1:51:52) made Silent Bob uh tear up, but of course God is also able to heal um uh Bethany and Alan Rickman says wax on, wax off, so uh I [laughter] guess Karate Kid reference. And with that using that same technique, Bethany is brought back. And as Bethany's brought back, uh she's saying, "Well, I I you

(1:52:14) know, he says we're going to have a lot more things for you to do." Uh and she says, "Sure, I'm the last Zion." And he's like, "No, you were the last Zion, you know, now she's going to be the last Zion." >> women. Now So she's no longer barren, she's now >> Sarah.

(1:52:29) >> conceived immaculately. And so now um that's going to be how everything wraps up as all of our heroes, you know, uh she's going to be for it right before God leaves, so he asks now a new question. And this is why I thought, yeah, maybe even if we're not talking about advanced

(1:52:47) uh academic theology and big philosophical questions that would mean and people among people who know these topics, but this is good. I I think this is very sophisticated how you know, she goes from the the original question that she had to the new question of you know, what

(1:53:10) um what is it that she had? Why are we here? >> Yeah. So so she's been asking about suffering the entire time, right? So the original question is what about my plans? Why am I Why am I suffering? It's not even almost the why is the suffering a universal condition?

(1:53:23) It's rather why What about my plans? >> Why my plans, my suffering and now it's like about existenialism. But why are we here? So it's not no longer about me, it's about us and purpose. But again, even unlike what um you know, Alanis Morissette is able to show us here that unlike what you might

(1:53:44) have been taught in Sunday school or something like that as a child, um this is not a question that can be simply answered. So So she meeps beeps her nose Yeah. and this is a question that you, you know, in existentialism you have to live with as opposed to one that if you if if God

(1:53:59) here was allowed to talk if Metatron were to talk for God and give her like a, you know, like seven-word answer, that would ultimately be very unsatisfying and unmeaningful. a self-focus >> a self-focus and also dogma and dogma to the idea of like a more universal focus

(1:54:22) and also an understanding that you can't answer existential big questions with either doctrine or dogma or even with the same simplistic explanations that they told you when you were a kid and then filled up your little >> with a little glass >> glass when you were a kid and you were

(1:54:45) happy with those answers, but there's no answer that is going to satisfy your adult mind that is an answer to a question like that that you can answer with a few words. Exactly. Um although she still she God here is a 100% anthropomorphic Garden of Eden uh God that she's happy

(1:55:16) Yes. >> lying in the flowers and >> Alan Rickman says, "I told you she was funny." She's [laughter] kissing people, so she is like as Bartleby was saying, it's not a wrathful God. She loves everyone and so it is a little bit of like this yeah, the God Jesus loves you theology and I

(1:55:34) guess God also loves to do handstands and things like that. Um which is not ultimately super satisfying, but but at the very least we are moving away from like the simple answers and dogma and doctrine into this >> see what's next like to live with that uncertainty. Yeah.

(1:55:57) All right. And so then that's kind of the end. >> [laughter] >> As all of our cast kind of goes, This is interesting, right? Cuz like even that's why I was saying this is a very Catholic framework because at the end of the movie God and the host of heaven go back

(1:56:13) inside the church. Yeah. And that's where I guess that's where God lives. Saying God is in church. And so that leaves our heroes to contemplate where they're heading off and and that's the end. And here is like this, you know, like the question I think comes up like do you believe?

(1:56:38) Yeah. And and Bethany says, "Well, I I think he says no or I don't know, but I have an idea." And again, this like this this concept of you just can't believe in ABC doctrine. This is it like the creed. Yeah. That going back to the beginning like I mean believe in the one God, creator of

(1:57:03) heaven and and well, not. Do I believe? I don't know if I believe in that, but I have a concept that I can start working with. I think that's that's the transformation of that character. I think it's it's pretty good. I I It was more sophisticated than I expected out of a

(1:57:22) comedy that maybe it's not super funny. I don't know you. Yeah. Well, it's I think Clerks is a lot funnier. >> [laughter] >> But anyway, I mean >> I don't like comedy in general, but I I was surprised by the theological exploration >> there there was so much conversation

(1:57:42) that I think was I don't know. I guess maybe I was listening to it for the conversation and less for the jokes. I did laugh out loud several times as we were watching it, so. >> Maybe maybe, yes. But I was really following the this conversation and and really just remembering in the

(1:57:57) the context of 1999, 1999 we thought that the world was was going to end because the computers were about to stop working because of the two uh Y2K bug. And so in the same way I think and I don't know if I'm reading into the story and into what uh Kevin Smith is is

(1:58:18) trying to do here, but it's like a theological take on the Y2K bug. Yeah. Like the idea that just because we had been using in our computers, which you don't even see computers in this movie, I think. But in everyone had computers back by then and there was this anxiety that

(1:58:39) because the the dates were only two digits, computers were going to stop working and all of a sudden the whole world was going to collapse because of this technicality in the computer. And I think that this technicality in the dogma, I think it's the same kind of

(1:58:56) thing. Oh, because two guys are going through this arch, the whole universe is going to collapse. I I I I don't know, maybe there might be a connection there. I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting. I like that. By God, that was a good time to work in IT. >> [laughter]

(1:59:12) >> Yeah, I thought I was going to be rich. But Well, as we've gotten this far, let's let's go back to some of the conversations that everybody's been having in the comments. Um I I I guess when we were running around and I was we were talking about the angels, I was uh wasn't clear what I was

(1:59:25) saying or I I said I misspoke. Um we were definitely what I'm trying to say in terms of the angels is that angels aren't in normal Christian theology, uh angels are not humans. They are a totally different order of creation and it's a uh understood I think to be an order that

(1:59:46) that is that lacks gender. So, the angels are not male and female and and every all the other kinds of ways that humans experience gender including being non-binary and all of the ways that humans, you know, we when we talk about um you know, uh there's sometimes

(2:00:02) Christians very inaccurately quote Genesis and say, you know, you know, male and female created God them, you know, in other words, as if there has to be only male and female as if God also created yeah, separated the land from the water and created ocean and and and continent

(2:00:19) or whatever in the Genesis narrative and yet there is the there is all of the gradient in between. There are wetlands, there are uh you know, there there is beach. In other words, this is there is that whole spectrum of gender is all uh affirmed in creation for um humans.

(2:00:36) Angels technically are are generally um although sometimes they're portrayed looking pretty masculine or pretty feminine, um in in a in a it's there but they're making the the point is that in in the Kevin Smith movie, they they were doing very very clearly about no

(2:00:54) genitals. It was yeah, that's why I I think we we don't often like to use the word sex. But I think in this case we're we're talking about you you said Yeah, I was saying lack of genitalia and that's why I said maybe it's more accurate to say sexless. Uh because I mean They were making that

(2:01:14) complaint in the movie. In other words, in the movie um Matt Damon was saying if, you know, if I had had if I'd been able to, you know, um masturbate maybe we wouldn't have gotten so pent up or something like that. And so again, it's this um hangup that Christianity has with sex

(2:01:31) and making rules against uh sex and all that. >> Yeah, and that's why I was saying this is like non-necessarily thinking about angels, this kind of the this whole obsession with the genitalia of angels. Uh and I think you were just trying to point out that they're getting it right

(2:01:47) in the sense that As opposed to what we see in the movie >> from humans. That movie, they do have genders and which is weird cuz like in I mean, I guess that's that's also like pop culture of our time that we have to imagine gender in in an angel that could be more

(2:02:05) like in more classical depictions of angels, sometimes they were extremely androgynous and you couldn't tell. It's like >> so it's like the um But I think that would have been that would have been a little um unsettling in the '90s to to show a very androgynous angel. There were like a few

(2:02:27) movies with androgynous characters that I remember like Stargate. Right. Um and that was very unsettling for most people. >> '90s, yeah. Well, you know, so for example, in the pilot of Star Trek, the um the Talosians, the way they present these aliens that have you know, are are supposed to be very

(2:02:47) alien is that they they get they had female actors and then they dressed them up with the giant brains on their heads and then they and they used male actor voices I think to dub them over in order to in order to try to you know, get around that. That's not

(2:03:03) what he was trying to do. So, in Kevin Smith is not you know, he had um you essentially the two main angels are bro angels, right? You know, and uh but they were just making the making the point multiple times by showing them pull their pants down to show that, you know,

(2:03:19) that that's that they're Barbie dolls down there is what they're saying. Yeah, that's that's like we're just reacting to the >> I also want to say in terms of the um the the the um understanding of God, the traditional Christian understanding of God is that God is not um

(2:03:35) your father in that sense in any kind of literal sense because God also transcends uh gender, right? And so that when in the Genesis story when uh people are created in God's image, both female and male, that is reflecting um that is reflecting a God that transcends

(2:03:53) and is that is not just a male God. It's not God is not look like Zeus. But here though it's pictured like Zeus. And so it's perfectly appropriate um to when you as a human are envisioning God, you can envision God as as your heavenly mother or as your heavenly father, but you just have to be

(2:04:13) aware that that's your own human um way that you're connecting to the divine. And and still this is um I would say that I think it was it was it um common at this time? I think yeah, like there there was a lot of feminist uh liberation theology going on at this

(2:04:33) time. But I would I'm not sure that it was so common in pop culture to to talk about God as a she. Mhm. Especially in a Catholic content context. >> yeah. But still it's a very anthropomorph anthropomorphic uh God that is in the mind of the creator here. Yes, absolutely.

(2:04:57) Um So, Harvey Squire 7523 says, "Well, wait, what about offspring of angels and women from Genesis, the Nephilim?" So, yeah, so again, there are parts of the Bible that predates Christian theology and so therefore don't don't work. Right? And so the idea of that is that

(2:05:21) the those are the sons of sons of God have are having children with the uh the daughters of men. And so originally that would have been the sons of God there would have been the rest of the gods in the sons of L, you know, that within the within the Canaanite pantheon, right? And so this

(2:05:40) is essentially a um a mythological story of gods um having uh taking human wives and creating demigods and so then they are the heroes of old. So, it's the same way that that uh gods are having in Greek mythology are having uh mortal relationships and so then the

(2:05:59) the the offspring of those between the the child of a god and a and a mortal becomes somebody like Hercules or Heracles and and Theseus and Perseus and all you know, in other words, all of the heroes are all like that. And so this the Nephilim is exactly the same thing for that. That's

(2:06:15) not um so that's mythology that predates the the what I'm talking about for the later development of of angelology which is actually all postdates when Genesis was written. Uh XM Music asks, "Why is there no salvation for angels? That doesn't make sense." So, um Again, this is like the So, this

(2:06:36) is like the medieval >> uh kind of universe that they are presenting in this movie. Well, but but I'm I was talking about maybe they were reacting to what I was saying for the Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Bec said where in other words, once the angels flipped one way or the other,

(2:06:57) I was saying that that's where they are forever. And so >> Yeah, yeah, but they say like the Exactly. are all of the angels that made that choice at the beginning, they are forever that way, right? And so then there's no salvation for them. Well, so because ideas like universalism and

(2:07:14) universal salvation have developed more more since then. And so I think that that in the conversation that they're having in the 12th and 13th century, I don't think that there is they have figured out the ramifications as much about um about how uh universal or like say

(2:07:32) eternal damnation um they didn't they weren't as worried about that as a ramification. Now, subsequently people have said, "Well, that doesn't that just How would a just God ever allow for, you know, uh universal damnation, universal punishment?" That that and so an

(2:07:50) argument that many people have is that their universalism is that ultimately everyone will achieve salvation including including Satan. Right? And another thing that we have to remember in this movie is that we're mixing a lot of theologies, mythologies, and all and

(2:08:07) from different places and eras. So, it's not necessarily going necessarily going to be consistent. >> Yeah. But the view that they're exploiting here is that yeah, apparently this is going to cause a contradiction because this cannot happen because these angels have already in the context

(2:08:28) of the understanding of what an angel is and what happens to angels in this movie is that's they have already done something to be on the bad side of God and now they can't go back to heaven once they're fallen. Yeah. That's what the let's say an assumption about the nature

(2:08:51) of angels in this movie is that. Um just lost the You have a lot of I have too many tabs open. I just lost my Oh, someone is concerned because I said I made a blanket condemnation of comedy. I didn't I did not >> [laughter] >> That See, that is That is a misinterpretation of what I just said,

(2:09:15) Deborah. I I guess I what I should have said was I'm a little suspicious of people who try to be funny always. Which is, you know, it's a cultural thing. You know, you're um Not that I don't, but when other people do it, yes, I'm always suspicious. Why are you trying to make me laugh? And

(2:09:40) that the same thing applies to comedy. Um But then turns out sometimes things that are not supposed to be comedic or or unintentionally funny, I love that. Yeah. There were a few things in this movie that were actually pretty funny. Yeah. Um Uh Well, Darth Aramis also asked, I

(2:10:01) understand when Loki was referring to Satan as the morning star, and I later learned that Jesus is the morning star. How can they both be called the same thing? So, um So, the reference to uh Satan as the morning star is one of the is one of the things or one of the

(2:10:21) references in the Old Testament. There The idea of a universal devil didn't really exist in the time period when most of the Old Testament was written. And so, there are only a few references that that get con- glommed together to create the concept by the time you get

(2:10:38) to Second Temple Judaism, the uh apocryphal period, the what what Christians will later understand kind of in New Testament times where you have Satan, who is also Lucifer, who is also, you know, the Lucifer is the morning star. Um Isn't also Venus? Isn't also Ishtar? Yeah. So, so Venus, the planet

(2:10:56) Venus, is um is both the morning and the evening star. So, they did not all ancient people understood that, but at certain point they did get it. And so, um and so, Venus, uh because of the importance of Venus as the as being very close around the sun and being there

(2:11:13) present and very, very bright like when the sun rises and sets and things like that because of the closeness of it and closeness to us, it became a very important uh astronomical body and therefore a god. And so, it is the goddess Venus and Ishtar and Aphrodite

(2:11:28) and all of those kind of things, but it also um is associated with uh with Satan by the time you get to some of the Christian time period in Second Temple Judaism. But not everybody, right? And so, in the same way where I was saying how um I was saying how uh

(2:11:47) Which one was it? It could be a bunch of things. It was uh >> [laughter] >> Oh, yeah, no, I was saying how um Metatron on the one hand could be uh just God's number one angel that he just created by himself or it could be Enoch that gets transmuted into an angel

(2:12:02) or it could just be another name for Michael. In other words, different um different books and different uh ancient prophets and and groups thought of it different ways. Well, so, the person who wrote the Book of Revelation, John the Revelator, um takes that same

(2:12:20) imagery of Venus, the planet Venus, the morning star, and um associates that kind of glory, you know, with that coming glory and things like that with Christ. And so, is um Satan Neither Satan nor Jesus is literally the planet Venus. You [laughter] know, and so, anyway, and

(2:12:40) so, that's um uh that's how it can both be because different different um biblical authors use imagery differently. And so, the more usual way of using the word morning star is to refer to to Satan, but you can also see it the other way. So. Almodovar. Yes, every movie of

(2:13:00) Almodovar, if you uh Darth Aramis, you were asking me, is there a comedy you like? >> Okay. >> Yeah, Pedro Almodovar, the Spanish filmmaker, from the beginning to end, I just can't stop laughing. There you go. I do like some comedy. You do. I've seen you laugh at comedy

(2:13:19) movies. So, David LaTour says, "Isn't Bethany the new Mary in this movie?" So, So, I was thinking, yeah, so certainly obviously since Bethany is going to give birth to the next last scion, that's certainly one of the roles. And she's also She's also um Sarah and She's a lot

(2:13:35) of characters, right? I mean, in a way, she's a Jesus character as well. >> right? So, that's what I was saying. Christ really isn't in this movie unless Bethany is Christ, right? >> she dies and is resurrected. >> resurrected. So, yeah, so she So, she's the She and and, you know,

(2:13:52) Alan Rickman, Metatron, compares her directly to Jesus. So, she's been essentially uh you know, a chosen one to do this particular thing. And so, there's an idea then in Dogma, anyway, of ongoing need for Messianic activity, I guess. And so, that's probably what's

(2:14:10) happened in this. So, maybe more of the new Jesus in this movie, but maybe also also after being Jesus going to be the new Mary. So, since there'll be another new uh female Christ as her daughter. All right. Oh, wait, no, here's another one. Um Uh Matthew Trucksell asks, "Is there a

(2:14:28) good use for Dogma as a Christian?" I think so, yeah. I think it's useful because I I like when people have conversations like the conversations that everyone is having in this movie. And I feel like sometimes we're afraid of having conversations like the conversation that Bethany was

(2:14:52) having with Bartleby on the train where they're sharing like their angst and their existential dread and their I guess these are conversations that we see in a lot in in the chat, but sometimes often when sometimes with our friends and family and even I mean, if

(2:15:15) you go to church, even with the other people who go to church, we don't often talk about But is that But is that conversation that they were having is that That's not Dogma. That's them That's them having a spiritual life. >> Dogma, Matthew, as the movie Dogma.

(2:15:31) No, no, he's meaning the dog- Well, maybe I'm wrong. No, I I was I was meaning >> talking about the movie. >> Okay, yeah, yeah. No, the the the movie's a good example of what people could do to have a their own personal faith explorations and through conversations in between having to fight

(2:15:45) demons. Metaphorically, hopefully. Yeah, no, I read Dogma with capital C, but no, this is with >> Dogmatic with small C. Yeah, with small D. So, we're we try to be a pretty undogmatic church. Um and I think that we're not about We we uh have a like we have a principle that is sort of

(2:16:07) like, you know, truth wherever it's found. And so, we're always open to new insights and new thinking. So, I think that we're more on the like Landis talking about the on the train having conversations kind of a church as opposed to that. Although, I I I guess I I will fall back

(2:16:22) on some like some very baseline you know, like dogmas is just that we I think that part like a a one of the leaps of faith that we make is that um uh is deciding that we see uh the divine is ultimately good or creation is ultimately good as opposed to being just about power or or just

(2:16:45) meaningless. And so, that would be I mean, is that dogma? It is a It is a um But I'm not sure that is dogma in this group because you might disagree and still be part of the group. That's true. >> But the problem with dogma is that if you don't agree in a particular uh

(2:17:06) statement, then you no longer are allowed to be part of the group. Right. Well, we're non-creedal, so we don't have If the dogma dogmatic- dogmaticness is especially about um having a creed that you have to adhere to and you know, that that's not how we do it as a church. And we try I think we

(2:17:26) we don't we don't evaluate it, right? So. We I often say we're non-dogmatic. >> [laughter] >> So, so, I'm not sure if there's a positive uh sense in that way for us anyway. >> I think there are sets of doctrines and beliefs that a religious group can have >> Yeah. that more or less

(2:17:49) are going to define what the religion is about, I would say. I know, but but we we tend to do them as like principles that you therefore have to cut think about as opposed to and, you know, as opposed to simply like making a list and saying, you know, this is

(2:18:06) If you get a plenary indulgence, you know, within this time frame, you know, we don't have that kind of a thing. But yeah, I mean, what what I'm thinking of is what you you can you might still have like a set of beliefs. For example, you believe that God is or the God

(2:18:23) exists, but so, the and that you go with that. And that But then you might have someone We But we have a lot of people in our group that aren't there and >> don't believe that there is a God." And so, if you don't even have to agree on on that point, >> Yeah. then is

(2:18:48) can you say in But the point is there and it's one of the things that defines the group, but then you're allowed to disagree with that very basic thing and still be part. Right. Well, we we uphold things, but it doesn't mean you have to you have to adhere to every single one of them in

(2:19:09) order to in order to be part of it, right? So, that's that's how the flexibility works. And I think that the flexibility is more what you were saying in the in in terms of principles, which is what I guess where the movie Dogma, now Dogma capital D, is taking us toward is the

(2:19:25) idea that you have to be a free thinker and do your own spiritual exploration as opposed to trying to inherit answers and a certain way of doing things and a kind of understandings what religion is and is not that has been inherited and someone told you and you have just

(2:19:53) blindfoldedly accepted them as matters of fact and so the movie is taking Bethany out of that kind of mentality into a more free thinking mentality >> Right. conversation on the train, exploration of existential questions without necessarily finding the answers, but the the whole spiritual past is in

(2:20:16) entertaining those questions. Um, and for entertaining those questions, you still need to have certain principles that maybe you're going to uphold as you were saying. Yeah. Yeah, she definitely was not being fed back in that parish in the Catholic the church in Illinois. In other words,

(2:20:35) that priest was not helping her at all, but she's now had a pilgrimage, a voyage of spiritual discovery that's caused her to re-evaluate things. So, now she's on a on a life journey. So. All right. We're going to wrap up. >> Thank you all. Unless is there more? Let me out. It's

(2:20:53) late. Yeah. No, we've gone on a long time. We thank you all for being with us. I think we've gone on longer than the movie by a lot. So, hopefully you enjoyed that and we always appreciate it. We like having these discussions. >> conversation. I feel like I'm on the

(2:21:06) train. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> And so we will see you all. We're about to, like I say, relocate to Italy and we'll start to find historic sites and do videos from there. So, watch us in shorts very soon. Thanks again. Thank you.