Q&A

The Book of the Law and Deuteronomy

(1:18:16) Love to see what you guys are thinking about all this. So, I want to begin by thanking people who have been donating. Thanks to Jagger Ube, to Fire Ever Living, to Anders, Anderlister, and to KX. Anders asked, um, I apologize, but what specifically is the book of law? Like, which part of our current Bible is the book of law, or is the law just the commandments? So um most likely I think most um scholars are now ar would now argue that this book of the law that's discovered by Hilkaya in the temple is the earliest

(1:19:04) part the central part of Deuteronomy. So, um, Deuteronomy is, um, you know, a second law and it has, um, the in the central code in the middle of it has has stuff that's been added to it. And so, it's probably that very earliest, um, version of Deuteronomy is the most likely thing that that would be.

(1:19:32) And so, in terms of law, so the so law or to one of the ways we translate Torah is law. And so we call it books of the law. And this is a shorthand that even exists in the um the Christian New Testament for the Hebrew Bible. Jesus isn't saying um uh you you can guys can read about this in the Bible. He says read about this in the law and the prophets.

(1:19:53) And so um we have the law as the shorthand or you know for the five books of Moses. That's a kind of a more broad um version. But in fact, even though it contains a lots of rules, um the parts that I mostly read tend to be the narrative parts. So there's also all kinds of um narrative stories essentially the um the stories from creation all through the you know early patriarchs Abraham down to the um uh the tribes of Israel and Joseph and Egypt and then um from Moses from Exodus on through Deuteronomy it's the Moses

Theories on Hilkiah and the Discovery Narrative

(1:20:29) stories. And so, um, what's meant here is the stories, uh, um, that are from the five books of Moses, but specifically the book that they're finding most likely in the Deuteronomic histories in the book of Kings is, um, Deuteronomy. Um, Doug Martin says, "What do you believe about Hilkaya and the book of the law story?" Some think it was the excuse to roll out the scribes newly crafted proto Deuteronomy.

(1:21:01) Two, it was an invention to justify um uh Josiah's reforms as a pious fraud. Three, it is a later interpolation designed to promote Josiah's myth, but is actually an anacronism for publishing duteronomy in the Hasminan period. So, so those are the main uh main theories, right? And so uh and so the I tend to think of this as um um you know this a pious fraud, right? So, so essentially we have had this um um this idea that Yahweh um uh the the people who are focused on Yahweh monolitism um have have wanted to push that direction and and in um Josiah's reign

(1:21:59) potentially at least we they say so in the book um um potentially they have act they have now debuted um this book as maybe protouteronomy as you say um and one of the things about it is that when when they read it um Josiah's never heard any of these commandments before and when they and when they read about for example a festival like the Passover the book itself explains nobody's done this before so so the implication um to me is that that this is part of a new program and that uh that people are not familiar

(1:22:39) with and it changes what they're doing. And so it is putting that into text and giving it um a text giving the text the authority of Moses the same way that that staff with the brazen serpent on it had had the authority of Moses before Hezekiah destroyed it. Um and so that's what I would say. I appreciate that there is an um and and that would then put the the dating of the earliest parts of the um or the earliest draft of the um the Deuteronomic histories all the way back to the very end of the first temple

(1:23:17) period. And so that makes it way earlier than what a lot of people are arguing now. The reason why um I still find it a little convincing is that uh there's a lot of things that are going on in these stories that um that seem to be well while they're in anacronistic to the time period that they're written, they they seem to be informed by this end the interests and ends at the at the end of the first temple period still as opposed to the interests of what the priests are saying in the uh in the Persian period.

(1:23:52) And so and so even though obviously there is ongoing editing and changes and additions and things like that, I think a strong case could be made for um this earliest possible date, which is to say during the reign of King Josiah. But as you say um one of the one of the we've had a whole lecture on when did the Torah become authoritative and this is very late.

(1:24:18) um it becomes an important text for people outside of the central priestly circle in the Hasminan period. Um and so and so as a result of that um it's quite possible for a much much later date for all of these things since they're not this a lot of these stories are not very widely known or or deemed important.

(1:24:38) And so in that case, like you say, um uh the story about finding um uh the the scroll in uh in Josiah's time would make a much later scroll uh seem much more ancient. And so that's also possible. And there's a good that people would have that same good motive um of pious fraud of introducing this scroll and citing it as having antiquity uh back to Josiah.

Dating the Composition of 1 Kings

(1:25:08) Uh Dolius Xperis says so uh when was first kings most likely written before, during or after King Josiah? So actually guys, we were just talking about that one. So that same question. So what I was saying not almost certainly not before um uh the earliest version could potentially have been written during and then uh it's also and would have been edited after King Josiah.

(1:25:33) So the um certainly the ending of uh of the book will have been added and lots of other additional edits will have been made after King Josiah's uh reign ends much more ignoby than the authors of a first draft would have it. But it's also possible to have been written anytime um thereafter all the way down till quite late.

Etymological Connection Between Josiah and Jesus

(1:25:55) Um Lemmings live says uh how is the name of Josiah connected to Jesus? Do they have the same root? Um I haven't so I haven't looked at that. I don't think so. They're they're not the they're not. Um so Jose Jesus is um is Joseph, right? And so Josiah um I guess so the Josiah it sounds like Jo Jesus in English but we I read it before the the Hebrew which was um which has a kind of a yahoo at the end of it or whatever because it's a it's a Yahweh theophoric name which uh Joseph doesn't have that as I recall. I

Archaeological and Biblical Evidence for Monotheism

(1:26:34) have to look at what Joseph means um in Hebrew. Uh Winston Barquez says, "Is there any archaeological evidence outside of Isaiah 45:55 to prove when Jews started to be strictly monotheistic?" So, so it's it's very hard to um you know to prove that. But yeah, there's all kinds of different ways that people have made um archaeological arguments that are based um um on, for example, when are high places destroyed? when are um our parts of altars have been when have they been deliberately um taken down and unpacked

(1:27:19) and and put put aside and so in a lot of cases people have dated um some of these sites to um Hezekiah's reign or Josiah's reign. Um that wouldn't make them strictly monotheistic. It would mean it would mean that's would be evidence of of this program of um monolatry ceasing to worship um these other gods of centralizing worship in Jerusalem.

(1:27:45) Um, and in terms of like, you know, evidence of of strict monotheism, it it's less archaeological because um, if you're wor if you're worship if you're if you're doing monoly or you're only worshiping one god or if you're a monotheist and denying the existence of other gods, you would leave approximately the same um kinds of buildings and shrines and things like that, right? So that so you have to um not as much use archaeological evidence.

(1:28:14) You have to use um um biblical evidence which is you know we look at all of the different texts of the Bible and start seeing you know a move from texts that are talking about you know you'll have no other gods before me. I'm a jealous God to places where uh later continuations of Isaiah are saying things like um there are no other gods besides Yahweh.

King Josiah's Political Agency and the Priesthood

(1:28:39) all of the other gods are simply dumb idols and things like that. So in other words, as as um as the as the texts are getting more um more strident in their assertion of monotheism which becomes later um K. Tempest Bradford, is there any evidence or scholarly theorizing that Josiah was a puppet for the priests when um a boy kings reign? That's a story that we often hear about him.

(1:29:05) So u he very well can be. There is no um there's I don't know that it's hard to theorize about him other than the biblical account because we don't have any um additional information about him. Um but you know he starts again as a boy like I was sort of mentioning they list an an incredible number of of all of his um officials and uh and and how important each one of them are and so and how and how they seem to be calling a lot of the shots.

(1:29:38) I mean, it's um the he he makes the order to repair the temple and to give money to the to the masons to provide the repairs, but the response that the priest has is, "Hey, I found this book, [laughter] you know." So, in other words, he he didn't ask them to go look for the book or something like that. Um and so and so we're not it's it's hard to know exactly how how much um like you say when he's a boy he's definitely under the control of the officials.

(1:30:06) Um we don't have any there's no there's no story of him um like dismissing all of his childhood officials and taking full charge. um you know so for example the story that I I quoted where um uh King Asa had um deposed his mother the queen mother um that that's the kind of thing that you do when there is a little bit of a shakeup and and maybe the older regime and the older officials from the past generation are still um uh are still around and the younger king says well look I'm I'm ruling on my own I'm getting rid of all of these people

(1:30:45) um that can happen in the course of monarch Archy, but you usually see it in terms of a story of getting rid of officials or getting rid of um a particular wife and replacing one wife with another as the new new favorite wife or getting rid of your mother or some other thing like that. And we don't have any stories like that for Josiah.

Composition and Authorship of the Torah

(1:31:03) So, it's pretty seamless as he's the boy who uh is obviously under the control of these officials to a guy who's working with all these officials doing clearly what they would like him to do. Um I I'm that I am says um do you think the entire Torah was probably written during this period? This era to me is the most interesting because I think uh the Torah and Samuel were done at this time under Josiah.

(1:31:34) And I just want to know what John thinks. So so the case can be made. Um, so if for example in the in the in the documentary um hypothesis, if we're if we're looking at the different source texts of the Torah, we know we have the different voices. Anyway, so these are the the Yahwist or J source, the Elois or Eource, the the priestly writer, and Deuteronomy.

(1:32:01) So um I've just made a case for Deuteronomy or the protouteronomy at least being from King Josiah's time. And um I also think that um that there is a case that can be made that that the Yahwist or the J voice um the earliest voice can also be read through um the the Deuteronomic histories and has a lot in keeping with the Deuteronomic stories including um uh a source that is you know in the terms of the Yahweh stuff that's courtly stuff that is um like a more of a fun story than certainly what the priestly writer is talking about.

(1:32:44) And so it's possible for that components or those source texts also to be at this kind of time frame. Um I think it's more difficult to make the case for the priestly writer uh to be writing at this time. seems more likely that um the priestly writers are are writing, you know, at either during the exile or after after the the returnees have come home.

(1:33:13) And the and the priests uh that consider themselves to be descendants of Aaron are um um are making their own case. So maybe they're either making in the case of a documentary hypothesis their own kind of counter Torah so that um so they have their own version of it. the priestly writer which is then combined together by a final redactor or in the case of the um um supplementary hypothesis they're adding their parts you know after the exile.

Egyptian Records of Judean Cities

(1:33:44) So I wouldn't say the whole Torah probably although it's possible to make the case I guess for the priestly writer to be in Josiah's time as well but I think most people would place that part later. Um, Ron Wagner says, "Did any of the Judean cities show up on the list of cities sacked by Egypt?" So, um, so I was looking at the list.

(1:34:10) Uh, this is when when Shashank is doing his um expedition and he lists off what all of them were. And I was I was looking at it and so um I'm I am not sure though. I didn't I didn't check for sure to see, you know, is Lakish on there or is Megiddo on there. So, um it and so I don't know the answer to that, Ron.

The Significance of Bethel and the Name El

(1:34:32) We'd have to look back at the Egyptian list and do more um uh and do more of a comparison for what what some of those cities are. Um I am that I am says is the name Bethl not a connection to the fact that the northern kingdom of Israel was not connected to Judea or that is in this or post exile era they were getting sewn together L versus the Yahweh source.

(1:35:03) So um so I mean you know what's happening here is um so you know L is uh the name of a Canaanite god and so he is um you know one of the the um the sky gods that is like let's say uh Saturn or the father of uh of Jupiter or or something like that Kronos. um and in the Canaanite version of that as opposed to the more active younger sky god like Zeus or Baal.

(1:35:38) And uh over time um as the um as Yaoism developed, Yahweh absorbed uh components of the different Canaanite pantheon. uh already relatively small pantheon gets ever smaller as um Yahweh absorbs L and L just becomes uh just mean starts to mean God and becomes an alternate name for Yahweh in the Bible. Um, and then Yahweh also absorbs all of the um attributes of his um of his consort Asher and also all of the um all of the stories and powers of of his rival Baal, right? And so, and so the idea that um the northern shrine has a um has a a site called Bethl,

(1:36:29) house of God, doesn't mean it's not a Yahweh site because um the Bible also uses L or Elohim or different variants of that um to be an equivalent of of Yahweh. Yahweh absorbs L. So um so it doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean that um that this is a um a site that is you know specifically like a a pagan or polytheist site.

Mosaic Authorship in Josiah's Era

(1:36:59) Uh although the description of it in um the Bible is that there are um you know multiple um you know multiple u vessels for different gods there. Um thank you Kermit for your contribution. Um, K. Tempest Bradford says, "Do we know if at Josiah's time the idea that the books of the law were written by Moses had been developed yet or did that come later?" No, this is when it's developed.

(1:37:31) So um so if um the book of the law is um protouteronomy, Deuteronomy is essentially claiming that this is the word of God spoke to spoken to Moses. And like I say, the phrase book of the law, the same way that that's phrased in the Hebrew in um in the second kings reference is exactly the same as the book that is referenced Moses giving to his successor Joshua.

Documentary Hypothesis and Deuteronomistic History

(1:37:58) So the idea is that this um this book that Josiah finds has Mosaic authority. Um, and that's where the idea of of this is coming from, right from this moment that Moses has written books that eventually haven't even been written yet, but and are going to become the five books of Moses. Uh, Ricky Palasio says, "Is the Deuteronomistic history where we get um the different sources such as J and P and the others, the Yahwist and the priestly source?" It's it's not, Ricky.

(1:38:34) This is that those are the those are the voices that are in the Torah. So those are the different um authors and the different source texts um that have very different um uh theological interests, very different voices, very different grammar and so forth that exist within the the five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Josiah's Death at Megiddo and Christian Eschatology

(1:39:01) And so and then we call them J and P because that's how scholars have identified them um um as opposed to the um voices within the Deuteronomic history. Uh Paco Delco Fararro says why did the death of Josiah at Megiddo become so important in Christianity? So, so there's a couple there's a bunch of different um you know things that happen at Megiddo.

(1:39:35) So, this is like the end of the of the kingdom according to the chronicler. And so, the chronicler calls it a battle. And so, that becomes um you know, kind of the battle that ended uh more or less ended the line of the kings. It goes on for a little while later as we saw, but they're not great kings after Josiah.

(1:39:55) And so and so this becomes a um a shorthand for um like a finale like an end. And so and so the um the Christian writer John of Patmos, John the Revelator, as he is creating imagery of the end of the world, he envisions a a new um battle at Harageddo at Armageddon. Armageddon that um that is going to uh take place that is you know kind of the end of the cosmic struggle between um uh the forces of good and and the forces of of evil.

(1:40:40) Um, and this uh has been misinterpreted then by later Christian writers as being kind of a a literal battle that's going to take place, you know, specifically in um, you know, this part of northern Israel and Palestine um, at Megiddo um, as opposed to um, an actual battle that is fought back a spiritual battle that is fought between um, the the word of God, the sword of god that issues the sword comes out of uh the person's mouth because it's the word of God and um the existing forces of uh of death and destruction

(1:41:24) and disease and things like that that exist in the world and ultimately um um um good will triumph in this uh in this um spiritual battle and that and and that will be the end of death and and so on as opposed to um some kind of literal battle. But yeah, that's where where the imagery comes from.

(1:41:48) There's a another another battle several other battles at at this major site, but this one's probably the one that influenced um uh John the Revelator. Kasumi Reena says, "If there's still more time, what was Josiah's fall at Telmago?" Uh, so does revelation make a parallel between him and Armageddon? So yeah, Kasumi, yeah, that's probably about the same thing that I was just talking about.

(1:42:14) So yeah, so that's where his fall is. So Megiddo is this um is a major site. It's called Talaggiddo because um so many layers have been built on top of each other. Eventually it was uh the city center having been destroyed so many times and rebuilt so many times um moved off the hill and the hill became an archaeological site in modern times, but that's the same idea.

Ancient Laws vs. Rabbinic Tradition

(1:42:35) Um, Andrew Andelistister says,"I still feel a little lost. Were there laws that people followed or was the law knowing the stories aside from the commandments, what did people actually have to do?" So um so there the amount of um of laws that are followed by all of the people in rabbitic Judaism today if you are a um if you're orthodox or conser you know or really conservative anyway or if you are ultraorththodox and hidic and so on there are um there are hundreds of commandments that you are following in you're doing, you know, all sorts of um,

(1:43:22) you know, different things depending on how your rabbitic tradition interprets those laws, right? And so, and so that's um, a modern well, it's a practice in in medieval I mean, it's a practice that has happened ever since late antiquity. um you know having all this this large number of laws that a large proportion of um you know the Jewish population the practicing um conservative Jews are actually all doing there is way um less of that right when this in this new thing is being introduced.

(1:43:58) So the only thing that we um hear um within kings that is happening and being um being uh imposed in terms of uh Josiah's time is you know no worshiping other gods centralizing all um worship at the Jerusalem temple and initiating uh at least one of the festivals the Passover. And so um in the upcoming centuries um there's evidence for you know all bunch of different festivals being performed certainly by the when Ezra reads the law they start doing war practices and so on.

(1:44:38) Um but still all the way down to um the Hasminan kingdom it's mostly only priests that are obeying a lot of these laws including purity rituals and things like that. And so um and so there is you know the evidence for example of avoiding avoiding pork is is less at different times. I haven't gone through all of the archaeology of all that there's but there's not all of the all of the different rules that uh are important later or not all part of it. So um so the book is called the law.

Motivations for Centralizing Worship

(1:45:11) It is you being used as a source of uh authority for these reforms, but it doesn't involve all of the different things that we um maybe are familiar with by knowing [snorts] a little bit about rabbitic Judaism, which develops much later than this. Um fire ever living was what was Josiah's motivation for centralizing worship? Um so so just like uh you know the the motivation for building a u a a big fortress controlling the the only road between two kingdoms is to um control the trade and and and the money and the and everything that is happening

(1:45:53) between there. Um centralizing uh worship in one place means that you now have um your direct officials are all the priests instead of all the traditional Levites who were um offering uh different rituals for people that were uh necessary for their comfort and all the other kinds of things that were accepting alms and also um doing animal sacrifices, plant sacrifices and so forth.

(1:46:21) that those are all happening traditionally in all of the different high places throughout the kingdom. By eliminating all of that, all of that uh commerce, all that wealth, all that all comes together now into a centralized kingdom. And so you go from having something that really was way more tribal or disconnected to having um a kingdom that is like a city-state that has um centralized authority, you know, over worship.

(1:46:49) It also gives you authority over all kinds of things including um you know just raising taxes, you know, communicating with everybody, you know, all those sort of things. So um lots of it's not just Josiah that's doing this. We we're seeing there's we see evidence that the other um neighboring kingdoms are doing similar things.

The Development of the Exodus Narrative

(1:47:09) The the kingdom of Israel was centralizing um the Moabites are centralizing and so on. Um um Paco Del Faro says, "What was [snorts] the history of the Exodus previous to Josiah's time?" So we did um we did a whole um lecture on the um the development of you know the Exodus myth. what what we can tell from um the extra biblical sources which uh you know for Egypt um we have very good sources and uh and the Exodus story as it's told would require you know somewhere between half the population of Egypt to all leave. So that would um be mentioned in

(1:48:02) the Egyptian sources even if they um would somehow try to characterize it as a win. And we've also noted that throughout almost the entire time when the Exodus would be set, it's that set in this time period of um Egypt's empire where Egypt owns and controls Canaan. So you don't actually um leave Egypt's control by going to Canaan.

(1:48:26) And so um and so we looked at how extra biblical evidence shows that we're really not talking about um a historical event. And so then we next looked at well when do um uh how early is uh in in the other biblical sources are figures like Moses and so forth known and um and some of our earliest um uh um prophets that are from the first temple period, you know, are very aware of the Moses character.

(1:48:56) Um and so the story the story is known in some of our early texts include Moses and those ideas and certainly um um as we saw in the story in Kings there's an old artifact associated with Moses that um that is also associated with polytheism and so again emerging out of this very earlier lived time and so and so Moses is understood to be an important figure still from the past in the um uh in the first temple period, but we you know don't have the the final version of the Torah until into the second temple period.

(1:49:39) Uh St. Brush, thank you so much for your support. Uh St. Brush says, "Feel better, my dude. Thank you, Centerlace." Thank you. I will uh almost I've like I say almost recovered from this cold and cough but I had to take a couple cough breaks and I'm going to probably do one as soon as I wave and say goodbye to you all. So good night.