Comment from @PureJadeKid

@TheMasterofBeatz writes:

@zaparine If the effect (the universe) begins, while the cause exists timelessly, then the effect is not eternal, and therefore not necessary. So we still have to ask: what determined that effect — rather than none, or a different one? If the cause is fully sufficient to produce the effect necessarily, and if that cause is eternal, then the effect would be eternal too. That’s why fire-and-heat analogies fail: the moment the cause exists, so does the effect — eternally. But our universe is not eternal. It began. So something in the cause must distinguish when the effect comes into being — which implies a decision, not a timeless necessity. This isn’t about projecting human traits like deliberation, it’s about the nature of causality. Only an agent can originate a temporal effect from a timeless state without that effect being eternal itself. Otherwise, the effect would’ve always existed. So your model is thoughtful, but it ends up reintroducing the same problem it tries to avoid. The only coherent way to explain a finite effect from a timeless cause is through agency — something capable of choosing to initiate. I just hope you accept where the logic leads, because it leads to Someone who loves you.

PureJadeKid writes:

​@TheMasterofBeatz We keep hearing this massive overconfidence about the type of metaphysics that obtains outside the skulls of humans, and outside of spacetime. And I keep thinking, maybe we have different metaphysics? It just sounds unreasonably confident to say what could be known about causality or contingency outside of spacetime itself and outside of rational agents who are meat- and central-nervous-system-based. It doesn't sound like epistemic humility. And even if the argument were sound, Christians keep opening the door to God but letting in Allah and Zeus and trillions of gods and monsters and ignoring that problem like it's not a problem, like you know the mind of god, and I keep wondering why believers wonder why unbelievers remain unconvinced.